[geocentrism] Ja asked a question.
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "geocentrism list" <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:21:29 +1000
Ja asked this question re Fatima. It is a question I have heard many times,
from those who do not understand either the Catholic faith, or indeed
specifically the message of Jesus Christ. That includes a lot of Catholics.
Don't ask me why.. I put it down to, they don't want to know. Such knowledge
requires a duty of sacrifice, that most hate.. see below.
Robert dealt with the question in general terms excellently. But I wish to
cover a couple of specifics. from logic and the Bible.
Ja asked:
"How do you know it is not one of the false signs and wonders of the end times
or some other example of people being lead astray?"
Although I have given much thought , and even written a page or two on this
question, before I give specific answer, it is necessary to look at it with a
bit of logic.
The Bible does indeed mention "false signs and wonders" Notice that the word of
contradiction is "false".. This says that these are false signs and wonders,
meaning not true supernatural events. The devil has no power to work true
miracles. He can make great signs and wonders, but these if carefully examined
are clever illusions, if not dillusions.
Scripture is quite clear about the fact that what the Pharoah's magicians did
was clever trickery, and not true miracles as was done by God through Moses.
Yet for the spiritually blind, the apparent duplication was equal to the power
of God.
This is why when accused of the Devil, Jesus answered them. 'If you do not
believe me then believe the works that I do' This statement would have no
valueor meaning if the devil could likewise perform such miracles. Jesus who
knew everything, was saying as much. I have listed below a detail of what devil
can and cannot do.
I have no desire to go here into the amazing truly supernatural prodigies,
performed throughout history by many of the saints. As Paul would be quick to
point out, we do not have sufficient impirical evidence to confirm them, but we
do have from Scripture the Promise of Jesus that many will perform such
prodigies in His Name.
But Fatima has no Saint exercising this perogative. It is modern and relatively
recent history recorded in the secular antagonistic press that existed in
"communist" Portugal of the time. I believe it was a direct revelation and
prodigie from God Himself in Heaven. The witnesses were many, from both the
faithful and the agnostic including those who were outright enemies of God
specifically, and his Church in general. Even the church authorities of the
time opposed it, and it took years to get church approval.. Perhaps because it
was highly critical of certain church ecclesiastics in high places.
The amount of real power amounting to gigawatts, rather than megawatts expended
during those few minutes of the event greatly surpassed that of the dividing of
the sea for Moses and his followers. Only the stopping of the sun (the entire
cosmos) in our Bible could surpass it for sheer power.
But not just immense physical power makes it supernatural alone. What
gaurantees that it was supernatural and from God, was the selectivity of
application.. What sort of technology could transform so much mud and wet
clothing into dry cracked earth and warm clothing WITHOUT cooking a single
person. That was the physical miracle, that no angel could perform. Not even a
super powered alien from Andromeda.
Before I leave you with the following article on Devils powers, I wish to
answer the last little important part of Ja's question. Of it being an example
of people being lead astray?"
Robert cited the good fruits. About the only "evil" that any anti-catholic
could find among the fruits of Fatima, was that it increased fervour and love
of God among Catholics, and many conversions to the Church from the rest.
Particularly the greatest "evil" was an increase in devotion to the mother of
Jesus . Somehow I just cant see how evil such devotion is so long as it is kept
within the same category, albiet a higher level, such as due royalty, as
devotion to ones own mother.
It certainly does not compare in evilness with what the fatima's main message
was all about, that neither corresponds with the intentions of the devil,
aliens from space or any super scientists of earth.. "Get your act together,
stop fooling around with your neighbours wife, dress modestly, avoid filthy
books and movies come back to the gospels and pray, otherwise a terrible
punishment, "entire nations will be wiped out", something like what seems to be
just around the corner today, and one must admit the world hasn't taken any
notice.
Philip
What the devils can and cannot do
The devils cannot do the following:
(1) Produce any kind of truly supernatural phenomenon; (2) Create a substance,
since only God can create; (3) Bring a dead person back to life, although they
could produce the illusion of doing so; (4) Make truly prophetic predictions,
since only God knows the future absolutely, and those to whom He chooses to
reveal a portion of it. However, the devil's intelligent conjecture about the
future might appear to mere mortals a prophecy; (5) Know the secrets of a
person's mind and heart. However, their shrewd intelligence and observation may
enable them to deduce many things about a person.
But the devils can do the following:
(1) Produce corporeal or imaginative visions; (2) Falsify ecstasy; (3)
Instantaneously cure sicknesses that have been caused by diabolical influence;
(4) Produce the stigmata; (5) Simulate miracles and the phenomena of levitation
and bilocation;(6) Make people or objects seem to disappear by interfering with
a person's sight or line of vision; (7) Cause a person to hear sounds or
voices; (8) Cause a person to speak in tongues; (9) Declare a fact which is
hidden or distant.
Whatever nature or science can cause, the devils too are able to cause,
according to what God may permit. See the Book of Exodus where the magicians
and sorcerers of Pharaoh were able to accomplish some of the prodigies wrought
by Moses and Aaron (Ex 7:11-12; 7:22; 8:7; 8:18-19; 9:11). Close to 200 A.D.,
Tertullian writes, "first of all, they [the demons] make you ill; then to get a
miracle out of it, they prescribe remedies either completely novel, or contrary
to those in use, and thereupon withdrawing hurtful influence, they are supposed
to have wrought a cure." (Apology of the Christian religion, 22).
In the face of the fallen angels' power to deceive, it is no wonder that the
Church is always very slow to declare a miracle or message authentic.
The devil has superhuman intelligence and is very clever, and to pretend that
you can definitively judge in favour of something's authenticity, without help,
is presumptuous.
To know if something is false, it suffices to know that it says something
contrary to the teaching of the Church. Hence, it is easier to pronounce
against visionaries than in their favour. But the mere absence of doctrinal
error is not enough. There have to be other positive indications.
The following quotations are from the final chapter of the rock-solid book
Spiritual Theology (Sheed & Ward 1980) by Dominican Father Jordan Aumann.
Signs of the divine spirit
"The following characteristics are general signs of the divine spirit:
1. Truth. God is truth and cannot inspire anything but truth in a soul. If a
person believed to be inspired by God, therefore, maintains opinions that are
manifestly against revealed truth, the infallible teaching of the Church, or
proven theology or philosophy or science, it must be concluded that the
individual is deluded by the devil or is the victim of excessive imagination or
faulty reasoning.
2. Gravity. God is never the cause of things that are useless, futile,
frivolous, or impertinent. When his spirit moves a soul it is always for
something serious and beneficial.
3. Enlightenment. Although one may not always understand the meaning of an
inspiration from God, the effect of any divine movement or impulse is always
enlightenment and certitude rather than darkness and confusion. This is true
both for the effects on the individual who receives the inspiration and its
effects on others.
4. Docility. Souls that are moved by the spirit of God accept cheerfully the
advice and counsel of their directors or others who have authority over them.
This spirit of obedience, docility, and submission is one of the clearest signs
that a particular inspiration or movement is from God. This is especially true
in the case of the educated, who have a greater tendency to be attached to
their own opinions.
5. Discretion. The spirit of God makes the soul discreet, prudent, and
thoughtful in all its actions. There is nothing of precipitation, lightness,
exaggeration, or impetuosity; all is well balanced, edifying, serious, and
full of calmness and peace.
6. Humility. The Holy Spirit always fills the soul with sentiments of humility
and self-effacement. The loftier the communications from on high, the more
profoundly the soul inclines to the abyss of its own nothingness. Mary said, 'I
am the servant of the Lord. Let it be done to me as you say' (Lk 1:38).
7. Peace. St. Paul speaks frequently of the peace that comes from God (Rom
15:33, Phil 4:9), and Jesus mentions peace as one of the manifestations of his
spirit (Jn 14:27). This is a quality that always accompanies communications
from God; the soul experiences a profound and stable serenity in the depths of
its spirit." (pp. 402-3)
Fr Aumann mentions other signs also: Confidence in God, Flexibility of will,
Purity of intention, Patience in suffering, Self-abnegation, Simplicity,
Liberty of spirit.
Signs of the diabolical spirit
".[S]ince the devil may disguise himself as a good spirit and even cause what
appears to be authentic mystical phenomena, it is helpful to mention briefly
the various signs of the diabolical spirit.
1. Spirit of falsity. The devil is the father of lies, but he cleverly conceals
his deceit by half-truths and pseudo-mystical phenomena.
2. Morbid curiosity. This is characteristic of those who eagerly seek out the
esoteric aspects of mystical phenomena or have a fascination for the occult or
preternatural. I gotta admit I qualify here at times.... Philip
3. Confusion, anxiety, and deep depression.
4. Obstinacy. One of the surest signs of a diabolical spirit.
I'm sure he means obstinate without good reason..
.
5. Constant indiscretion and a restless spirit. Those who constantly go to
extremes, as in penitential exercises or apostolic activity, or neglect their
primary obligations to do some personally chosen work.
6. Spirit of pride and vanity. Very anxious to publicize their gifts of grace
and mystical experiences.
7. False humility. This is the disguise for their pride and self-love.
8. Despair, lack of confidence, and discouragement. A chronic characteristic
that alternates with presumption, vain security, and unfounded optimism." (p.
412)
Fr Aumann mentions other signs also: Impatience in suffering and stubborn
resentment; Uncontrolled passions and strong inclination to sensuality, usually
under the guise of mystical union; Hypocrisy, simulation, and duplicity;
Excessive attachment to sensible consolations, particularly in their practice
of prayer; Lack of deep devotion to Jesus and Mary; Scrupulous adherence to the
letter of the law and fanatical zeal in promoting a cause.
Signs of the human spirit
"The human spirit is always inclined to its own satisfactions; it is a friend
of pleasure and an enemy of suffering of any kind. It readily inclines to
anything that is compatible with its own temperament, its personal tastes and
caprices, or the satisfaction of self-love. It will not hear of humiliations,
penance, renunciation, or mortification. If any director or confessor goes
against its inclinations, he is immediately branded as inept and incompetent.
It seeks success, honors, applause, and pastimes. It is always a great promoter
of anything that will arouse admiration or notoriety. In a word, the human
spirit neither understands nor cares for anything except its own egoism.
"It is sometimes difficult in practice to judge whether given manifestations
proceed from the devil or from a purely human and egoistic spirit, but it is
always relatively easy to distinguish between these two and the spirit of God.
It will be possible in most cases, therefore, to determine that a given spirit
could not possibly be from God and that it must be combatted, even if one is
not sure whether it is in fact from the devil or the human ego." (p. 413)
The Desert Fathers: sayings of the Early Christian Monks:
Quiet
11. Nilus said, 'The arrows of the enemy cannot touch someone who loves quiet.
But those who wander about crowds will often be wounded by them.'
----- Original Message -----
From: j a
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:08 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: papal infallibility
Calling all Catholics! I'm curious about something if any of you care to
reply. If you see the faults in your membership and, more importantly, your
leadership and expect it to become even worse, how do you know when it began
and how do you exempt yourself from inclusion in it? More specifically, I've
noticed at least one, if not all, of you believes that Fatima was God-inspired.
How do you know it is not one of the false signs and wonders of the end times
or some other example of people being lead astray?
I'm not tying to start a debate or anything anti-catholic, your recent emails
back and forth among yourselves have prompted me to ask because I am curious of
your logic and reasoning.
JA
Robert Bennett <robert.bennett@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Just wondering what John Paul I did in his one month pontificate to incur
the title of non-pope?
Robert
��.., it is entirely possible that the three last popes counting this
current encumbent, represents the three times denial of Peter. Even though
Peter failed thrice, Jesus still accepted him as Peter. Hence you are correct.
It would be a brave man or a fool who takes it upon himself to declare the see
vacant, as many appear to do.
Philip
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