What you guys cant seem to get your head around is that the nightly trails are due to a observers change in orientation to the stars nightly 360o. A rotation around a axis period! They exist period! Every 23 hour and 56 min + the earth is in the same rotational position it was the night before over the course of a year and marks out a ROTAION?If the stars were to far away they would not produce star trails around that annual radius they certainly would not produce start trails from a rotation who?s radius is 23,000 times smaller..!? It is the same cause the observer moves though 360o change in his orientation to the stars. The annual rotation would have to produce at least star trails at least the same size as the nightly because it is the same mechanical action. Even If they did produce the same size trails, (they produce none) then you could?..caugh?..caugh?claim you would not see any bigger trails because they were too far away to make the them any bigger ?but there are no star trails! No trails, the same size or any size,.. none!!!! If the rotation of the observer orientation to the stars on such a small daily radius produces those trails due to a change in 360o orientation to the stars nightly ?..well?.that is exactly what you do annually over a much larger radius. The difference is annually they do not produce anything , even thought the observer has still traversed thorough all 360O of orientation to the stars just as he does on the nightly axis , the only difference is it is a radius that is 23,000 times larger and NO TRAILS EXIST ON THE ANNUAL AXIS !? The distance to the stars is irrelevant ..why??.. because the trails are produced nightly due to a change in the observers orientation to the stars about a axis of rotation on such a small radius.. If star trails could not be produced around the annual axis because they are too far away then there is no way to account for the nightly ones??..IT?S THE SAME STARS!!! And IT?S THE SAME IDENTICAL ACTION, only larger (except that the change in orientation to the stars takes place around a axis of rotation who?s radius is 23,000 times larger) !? The absolute best you could claim to "explain" this is to say that the y are not any larger around the annual axis (same size) because even that much of a change in radius or rotation (around the sun) would not make a difference, ??????????. BUT THEY DON?T EXIST AT ALL! philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Re this thread, and Regner's question, I have to withdraw my previous statement that observations of the rotations of the North or South stars or any stars for that matter, are evidence of support for geocentrism. One would have to considerably reduce the alleged and accepted distances ..NO...distiance is irrelevant....these stars are from the solar system, for this hypotheses to have any value. I see no evidence that would convince me that these distances are wrong. I apologise for any distraction I caused. It was fun though, as I was forced to get with the facts, which I now want to forget. I continue to hold to my original stated position in support of geocentrism, namely that the laws of Newton hold true but are incomplete without the effect of an aether being included. Therefore I do not have any facts as such, but merely a hypotheses , in support of geocentrism. Philip.