[geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call

I dont understand what you mean that is a cop out..or what your point is 
here...I have and do argue for free will ...but......

1. this is not a free will debate..
2. I address the argument from the only two posibilites that exist in Theology 
today.....I argue from both postions so as not to pick one over the other and 
engage that debate all over again here it is not nessisary.........either 
theological position has a ultimate logical conclusion...im only pointing out 
thoses conclusions for both postions...im not taking one over the other 
here.......it is not a cop out but rather a comprehensive expose of the 
issue.....?????
3. in any case what I point out holds true particulaly if you hold to no free 
will.......but Phil since you  being the Good Catholic you are...choke..:-) you 
do not argue the position from wich i was addressing I dont see how you can 
protest a non relevant arguement to your postion....???? ...My point was that 
either postion  "the no free will " or "free will" theology position  can yeild 
any other  ultimate meaningfull conclusions....at least not logicaly....



----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:53:33 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call


If God had created man with no free will then....Allen
 
Thats a cop out Allen and you should know it..  Its the same cop out the 
Catholic Church promotes, and it holds no ice with me... 
 
If every created soul had the same vision and awareness of God in person, that 
Adam had, actually a daily conversation in real terms no hidden talking to 
ourselves schemozzle, then I doubt even Paul would be the atheist he is today. 
 
Mankind were and are deprived of the one thing that would have kept billions on 
the straight and narrow..  The certain knowledge and presence of their creator. 
In Heaven only half the angels rebelled..  On Earth when Jesus was there, many 
many were saved. In fact most that actually saw, and talked and walked with 
Him..  Only after the magic was taken away, did the failures return.. Even some 
of the Romans killing Christ became perfect. 
 
Like I said, free will is nothing in the face of insufficient and missing data. 
 When Jesus left the world, we had Magnus the magician still doing tricks, and 
he is still here doing them, whilst God has been doing nothing. But what of 
Judas? He saw it all..  What was wrong with him? He had to be brain dead!  
Created that way?  Like Lucifer.. a flawed product. If it was a case of free 
will, I can see only one explanation..  Maybe Judas was not impressed with any 
miracles..  Perhaps another Magnus was around who could do bigger and better..  
 
You guys have got no case..  I think its time you took instruction in the Roman 
Catholic Church...  Too late its disappeared..  
 
Philip. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Allen Daves 
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 8:59 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call


God created trillions and trillions of people....
 
The greatest majority of whom are failures such that only a few are chosen..  
the rest he hates forever. 
 
The question may be asked, but not allowed. Who is to blame for this massive 
failure? 

 
If God had created man with no free will then God but then could you realy Call 
it a failure?.....If that was his plan?.....on the other hand, if God Created 
man with a free will then man is to blame for the failure of his own 
choices......That is why i  addressed choice 1.options  2.ability to exiercise 
the options.. if there was no forbiden tree to eat from there would have been 
no choice....if God did not give man the ability to exercise the choice there 
would have been no choice...........If man has a choice then God cannot be 
blamed for man's own choices/ failure....If man does not have a choice then 
there is no failure, only God's master plan....nothing more then triming the 
hedges/ prunning the rose gardens and cutting down the beautifull grass when he 
so chooses.......????
 
In short... either ther is no way to define it as a failure ........or........ 
the failure is ours!

----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:17:11 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call


Your objection does not negate or address the fact that  as below........ 
Allen. 
 
Allen, this debate is not about me or you or salvation. We each do that for 
ourselves. Its not even an objection.  This is about rational scientific 
reasoning as to why.  (though I will cover this next) 
 
When a truthful fact is unpalatable no one wants to hear it or think of it.  
Everyone here has ignored a fact I stated. I will state it again in simple 
terms. 
 
From the Christian Bible/religion:  
 
God created trillions and trillions of people....
 
The greatest majority of whom are failures such that only a few are chosen..  
the rest he hates forever. 
 
The question may be asked, but not allowed. Who is to blame for this massive 
failure? 
 
Philip.
 
I'm still mystified as to what this means: 
Every duty had its own own bugle call
but it sounds good
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Allen Daves 
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:32 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call


Your objection does not negate or address the fact that 
1.truth whatever it is is intrinsic to itself not me or you.
2. If you philip say that you accept Christ then you must accept his words...He 
is the way and the truth and if you seek him you will find him......not budda!
 
You are confusing every thing that is true in the universe with the truth that 
brings salvation...you dont have to know every thing in the universe or oevery 
truth in the universe to obtain salvation from the one you seek it form...JESUS 
CHRIST....nor do you have to know every true thing about Christ to have the 
truth...i personly dont know the truth of the color of cloths he wore...????


----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:49:34 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call


But Allen, that is not an answer.. If it is you who have found the TRUTH 
through seeking, then no one else here has. If I have it, then still no one 
else has found it. Maybe nobody has it.  
 
Don't you see how meaningless and useless the promise is? Its about as valuable 
as the one which promises you can tell that mountain to move, and it will 
move.. Has that ever been done ever?  There is no way, save a bolt of 
lightening and a pillar of flame from Heaven, to confirm what you found...  Oh 
yes there are plenty of excuses that may fool you into believing it, but 
everybody has a great number of conficting proofs of that sort.  
 
Talking about pillars of flame, how about a real audio voice in your head. Back 
at the Tokyo exhibition, many decades ago, it was demonstrated where two 
soundless ultrasonic waves one modulated with audio, were beamed directly into 
the position your head was, and you in that position heard the voice of God, 
and no-one else heard a thing..  Old hat, but quickly confiscated, never to be 
seen again, except we now have a spate of Islamic suicide bombers, and drugged 
out school kids obediently shooting up and killing people because they heard 
God telling them what to do... And they really did hear him...  
 
Oh what a joyful experience to be confirmed in this way, for the unenlightened 
anyway..  You see, Neville would know it was not God, because his God does not 
kill like that..But thats just a nice feeling wish.  He cannot be absolutely 
sure. "Vengeance is mine" sayeth the Lord.. 
 
You would not kill, saying it is the voice of the Devil not God.  But I would 
say someone has some electronic equipment nearby...  
 
Philip. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Allen Daves 
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 2:25 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call



Why bull?..again context is everything...Did Christ come to preach islam or 
hindu or somthing else?..Chriat is not saying what ever you find will be ok 
with God as long as you seek!?......He is saying that if you look for him/ 
truth the words of life and truth you will find them........ the importaince of 
not taking a few words or Christ external of all of his words and developing a 
Gospel out of it.....It would be just as erroneous to take the instructions of 
employer out of context when he states..." well if you dont feel good just go 
home".......If you dont put that statement into its context I could attempt to 
use that for any and every case when and where i did not feel good....come guys 
use the same approach to Christ as you would any other real person......There 
is the imediate context and there is also the "big piture" 
context...............I bet none of you have any problems making the 
distinctions or "figuring it out" at work or anywhere else
 for that matter.....?  ..That is the point....."seek and you will 
find."................not find what you want then "call it good" coz you 
"seeked it"....!?.
 

 
----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:04:04 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call


In my defence, however, I would argue that this is what 'Jesus' stresses by 
seemingly repeating his admonition to seek: "Ask and it will be given to you; 
seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone 
who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be 
opened." (1st canonical gospel 7:7,8, NIV.)  Neville
 
With regret, even Catholics believe this, but to me its all bull.. 
 
If a child of Islam seeks and believes, he finds Islam, a Hindu, hinduism, an 
Angilcan the church of England, and a Catholic  the Roman Church and so on..  
 
The evidence everywhere says that this does not work...diversity in 
contradiction cannot be right..  unity in diversity is a contradiction. 
 
For elsewhere Jesus says, "I chose you. "  not you chose me...and elsewhere 
many are called, but FEW are chosen. and again, if you accept Paul, "as he 
chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.."     
 
Seek and ye shall find..  Neville, Jack, and Phil  and Dave etc all feel they 
have found the truth, yet only ONE, or NONE, can have it. And going on the 
averages against the trillions of created souls, NONE is the most likely among 
our little group and the entire world today.  
 
14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few 
there are that find it! 
 
What a dismal and unhappy creation. What a promise? Its like saying you might 
win the lottery..  Worse.. the averages of chance for the whole human race in 
all of time are far worse. 
 
Yet not liking it cannot change it. Not Neville. Not I. Its a stupid scientist 
who says He does not exist. Its the height of stupidity and arrogant pride to 
claim such perfection in a matter where you do not find out you are wrong till 
its too late..  
 
I'm not so perfect. I'll take some insurance thankyou ..  I'll buy a ticket.... 
and try to pay my premiums every year. 
 
Philip.  
 
for some relief I have a question for the astronomers next....
 
 
 




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