Jack said, "My faith in a God is based on reason, the reason that things, anything must be made. I say its inescapable and you would say it isn't, why?" Jack, My Catholic religion, St Thomas Aquineas et al, likewise declare such a logic as you espouse. As I said to Rob a moment back, I disagree with this. You asked Rob why. Let me tell you my reason. Such reasoning that the world must have been made by an intelligent being, is primitive logic. It is based on ancient philosophy formulated in the days of primitive science. It is plain untenable to me to say something must be because it must be. Thats limited shallow thinking. You said, "God is based on reason" Yes, I agree, but just saying because "it must be" is not a reasonable reason. It is non-reasoning. It is a dogmatic statement, as an axiom, (self evident truth) which in itself is not self evident. The real reason, and it is a reasonably logical reason is that God revealed Himself not only in His Word, the Bible, but in many other physical ways as well. All of which can be verifiable. The choice of man is to seek and verify, or reject out of hand. This is where science has taken sides. It rejects God out of hand, as a first principle, upon which every scientific postulation has to be based. Thus it runs from geocentrism, into H centrism, even whilst they acknowledge that both systems are mathmatically viable. Philip.