Thank you Phillip. It would seem that the proof I'm questioning only proves it's point if the universe is small but not if the universe is large. Since Heliocentrists think the universe is large, therefore the proof is not valid against HC. Philip <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:I think you have a POINT ja! I think perhaps that is why neville needs to shrink the universe. You remind me of the old camera lense. one end had a focal length of perhaps a foot. where as the other end was called infinity , which seemed to have a focal length of everything from 10 feet outwards to infinity. Something perhaps no one has considered.. Neglecting all our hypotheticals like aether, empty space is not really empty. It is sposed to be composed of very rareified atomic Hydrogen. Empty from our perspective, but I would hazard it would be rather dense given a parsec or two. What sort of magnifying or diffracting effect might this have on what we see in the heavens, as those rays of light come our way. No one can state with absolute certainty that radiation will not be forced to curve....whether by hydrogen or magnetic fields unknown to us. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: j a To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 12:17 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Celestial Poles I used a little artistic liscence too. Think of the north star in my arguement as the center of the circle that it produces daily. My responce is: what is 150 million Km compared to 430 light years. If I did the math right it's 0.000016 light years compared to 430 light years. Isn't that like comparing 5,090 miles to a foot. How could you see a difference in something 5,090 miles away if you moved left or right by 1 foot? If you sat on a kids' 'sit and spin' and placed an object a short distance away from being directly overhead but 5000 miles away and you watched it as you spun around you would see it make it's small circle. Move the 'sit and spin' over 1 foot and look at the object again as you spin and you will not see any difference from your previous view. And your view above you has nothing to do with the view below you. Someone on the opposite side of the earth could do the same experiment with the same result. "Dr. Neville Jones" wrote:Hi James, The diagram by Jack uses artistic licence to exaggerate the effect. Polaris is not due north, but slightly offset. It is not so far away that we do not detect the fact that it describes a circle daily. If we detect that on a World with a 6,300 km radius, how much more would we detect it during the course of one year - which is effectively on a World with a 150,000,000 km radius? Also, the effect on the south celestial pole would be empasized by the tilt of the axis (the "ecliptic") and by the necessary wobble in the heliocentric myth. Neville. j a wrote: Well I just wrote this long diatribe on why I think the "Proof of Heliocentric incorrectness 3" is flawed and I lost the draft. Maybe someone didn't want me to send it. I'll test that with one more attempt. After reading the Proof and thinking how could anyone not see the logic in this arguement, I noticed that the Diagram included showed an earth that was summer in the nothern hemisphere all year long. So I wondered how the HelioCentric model would work if I corrected the "wobble" missing from the diagram. At winter solstice the North pole should point 77 degrees up from the plane of orbit (pointing toward the sun) and at winter solstice would be 103 degrees. Now it would seem that the north pole would never (or maybe 1 or twice a year) point at the north star. So I looked up what the helio's had to say. Take two points (where earth is in space at two different locations half a year apart) and then draw a triangle with the third point being the North Star. Now push the north star further away and the triangle narrows. Push it far enough away and the triangle gets hard to draw, it starts to look like a like a line. With the distance that conventional science gives for the nort h star, there is no way to differentiate the view of the north star at any point of the year and the same reasoning will hold true for the area that the south pole points at. If you take the diagram in the proof and make the same triangle and then push the north star far enough away you will get the same result: a straight line. And you can extend the line through the south pole and far out into space and then still do the same exercise - you can still get a straight line. I am not attacking Geocentrism (which explains what we see also, but without the need for such large distances) just the proof. I think another thing that supports geocentrism and not HelioCentrism is the earth's wobble which so completely matches one year. Why not a complete wobble matching some fraction of a year? Which is more probable given the heliocentric view? I look forward to everyone's replies James... Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.