Not so Philip, The two Roberts and their GWW is full of them. We have lost this particular argument and must now put this one to bed. Perhaps we can call upon Regner to address Robert Sungennis' original 1st point and those posted by other's. It has been a spirited debate with Regner and I congratulate him on his analytical skills. Interestingly the celestial poles argument was well in progress before Regner's participation; he just got caught up in it before he had an opportunity to take on our other arguments. I sincerely hope that he stays with the forum. I am currently trying to get another heliocentrist, who is also a committed Christian, to return to the forum and take part. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:48 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Celestial Poles No apology needed Neville.. We all are responsible for building up our own expectations. I think it was myself who first suggested stopping the world and taking a picture every day. It took me a long time to work out how that would not happen, even after Regners explanations. Now we have the problem of finding another argument.. LOL Philip.