Since the Earth is not moving in a GS model and in the HC it is moving around the sun, the only way star trails could appear in a GS model is if the whole universe was vibrating around the earth over a period of one year with a 3% elliptical and a ~150 million mile radius. But there are no star trails, which excludes the possibility of the earth moving around the sun. As Dr Jones points out, if the nightly star trails are due to a ~7000 mile circle (spin) of the earth then the 300,000,000 mile circle that the earth makes around the sun should produce annual star trails that are ~42,000 thousand times larger than the nightly ones. If the nightly star trails are due to a say ~.0000005 of a degree angle between the observer and the star and that produces a star trail that is say ~.5 inch across (in the sky)over the course of one night then over the course a year it should produce one~43,000 times that size or ~21,500 inches in dia, because the nightly circle is only ~7000 miles big in diameter, the yearly is ~300,000,000 million miles big. How could it not be there? But it is not there! If ~3500 miles (Earth?s Radius)represents .0000005 of a degree at 430lys, then the angle of the observer after moving 300,000,000 miles away would change drastically from .0000005 of one degree to ~.214 of a degree from where it was before. I?m not using trig here just REAL ROUGH numbers off the top of my head. In any case it is a big difference. I think it would be good if Dr Jones could SIMM this in GU 2005. Allen j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I appreciate the answers to my question, but maybe I'm dense on this one 'cause I don't get it. If a star gives a certain angle, then moving that star further away only decreases the angle we would measure. The base of our traingle, the width of the planet for GC or the width of orbit around the sun for HC would remain the same. Both distances incredibly small compared to the distance of that star giving the "looks more like a line than a triangle" arguement it's validity. For GC the universe can be large or small and the star trails would look like they do but for HC the universe must be large for the star trails to look like they do. So, I still don't see how this statement could be true: :"Incidentally, these star trails can only be explained by a rotating universe, rather than by a rotating World." I would like this statement to be true, but I don't see how it can be. Thanks, James... Philip wrote: thats is what I am saying angles are angles and the further the distance the greater the displacement., Phul ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Daves To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:33 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Celestial Poles Correction: This is what I meant. The further away the earth is from a given star the smaller the angle will be but the displacement of whatever that angle is will also be proportionally larger. Allen Daves wrote:Both GS and HC are essentially just a mathematical coordinate systems for what we observe here on Earth. A method for calculating how far away and where something is going to be at any given time in the heavens when we look up. The appearance of motion is identical, It is the theoretical motion that gets the stars and planets to the right place at the right time that differs. However, at externally large distances any discrepancies in the two methods for achieving those positions will show up. This is due to the fact that a ~.0000005 of a angel at the point of origin is imperceptible to the observer at the point of origin, however at 430ly away it will displace ~7926 miles. The average male is 5'6". Relatively specking the displacement of that angle at that distance is overwhelmingly enormous compared to the observer. The further away the earth is from a given star the smaller the angle will be but so to will the displacement of w hatever that angle is. Basically, we as the ob servers will always be microscopic compared to the displacement of the angles at those distances, thus we can observe this phenomena quite readily. It is interesting to note that the HC have estimated Polaris' distance from Earth to be everywhere from 360 to 820 light years . The 430ly figure is from the Hipparchus satellite estimates. j a wrote:"Incidentally, these star trails can only be explained by a rotating universe, rather than by a rotating World." Why is this true? I thought that the appearance of motion in either HC or GC were the same? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com