Cheryl, My 72 hour entombment belief allowed me to disregard the Biblical Calendar that was presented to me. If Messiah was keeping two sabbaths in this period, an annual sabbath and a high sabbath that did not overlap, then I did not even have to consider at a calendar where the annual and the weekly sabbaths always overlap. I could not have written the article Neville posted on his site. Carl Cheryl wrote: >I'm putting up an article on this subject that seems to have sensible >answers to everything -- namely that the crucifixion occurred in AD 31 when >there were two Sabbaths. The only reason this question would be important >to answer is that precise conformance to prophecy and accuracy of the Bible >is at stake. I have no doubts about either. I'm sure there's a correct >explanation for what might appear to be a discrepancy. I'm not sure which >it is, but the one below seems to make sense. >Cheryl > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The Resurrection of Jesus in Prophecy > > Did the resurrection fulfill the prophecy of Jonah? > > by Dr. David Reagan > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The most significant prophecy in the Bible concerning the resurrection of >Jesus is known as "the prophecy of Jonah." It is a symbolic prophecy >represented by the three days and three nights that Jonah spent in the >stomach of a great fish (Jonah 1:17). > > Jesus explained the prophetic symbolism of this unique event on an >occasion when He rebuked the Pharisees for seeking a "sign" from Him. By a >"sign," they meant a miracle that would validate Jesus' claim to be the >Messiah. > > > > The Prophecy's Meaning > Jesus took their word and played with it by telling them that the only >"sign" they would be given would be "the sign of Jonah." Jesus then >proceeded to explain what He was talking about: "for just as Jonah was three >days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of >Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew >12:38-40) > Jesus clearly and distinctly prophesies here, using the example of Jonah, >that He will spend three days and three nights in the tomb before His >resurrection will occur. > > This prophecy, like all Messianic prophecies, had to be fulfilled in the >life of Jesus if He truly was the Messiah of God. Jesus emphasized this >point Himself after His resurrection when He told His disciples, "All things >which are written about Me in the law of Moses and the Prophets and the >Psalms must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44) > > > > The Prophecy vs. Tradition > But was the prophecy of Jonah really fulfilled in the burial experience of >Jesus? According to the traditionally accepted chronology of events, it was >not! > The traditional chronology places the crucifixion on Friday morning and >the burial on late Friday afternoon. It fixes the resurrection on Sunday >morning. Thus, according to the traditional view, the body of Jesus was in >the tomb only one full day (Saturday) and two full nights (Friday and >Saturday). Jesus said His body would be in the tomb three days and three >nights. > > There have been many attempts to reconcile the problem that is raised here >by the divergence between the prophecy and the traditional view of its >fulfillment, but all the attempts I have read have always fallen short of >producing a true fulfillment of the prophecy. Jesus said all Messianic >prophecy had to be fulfilled in Him, and I believe He meant every detail of >every Messianic prophecy. Otherwise, it could be argued that He was not the >Messiah. > > > > The Source of the Problem > Let's consider the events in the last week of Jesus' life to see if we can >find some clues that will solve the problem. Perhaps the best place to begin >is with the problem itself. It is rooted in Mark 15:42 where it says that >the crucifixion took place on "the day of preparation before the Sabbath." > This verse has led most people to assume that the crucifixion took place >on a Friday since the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday. And that assumption has in >turn led to the conclusion that the crucifixion had to take place in either >30 or 33 AD because those are the only two years in the general time period >of Jesus' death when the day of preparation (14 Nisan on the Jewish >calendar) fell on a Friday. > > > > Peculiarities of the Jewish Calendar > A careful study of Jewish calendar practices will show that the assumption >that the day of preparation in the year of Jesus' death had to fall on a >Friday is invalid! Such an assumption is based upon Gentile ignorance about >Jewish feast days. > What the Gentile church has failed to recognize over the centuries is that >the first day after Passover (15 Nisan) is a feast day, or "high day" >because it is the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is >therefore considered to be a Sabbath, regardless of which day of the week on >which it falls. Read Numbers 28:16-18. Verse 18 clearly indicates that the >first day after Passover, Nisan 15, is to be observed as a Sabbath - and so >it has been throughout Jewish history to this day. > > Now, the Gospel of John makes it clear that the Sabbath after the >crucifixion was not a regular Sabbath. Rather, it was a feast day Sabbath, >marking the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Consider the words >of John 19:31 - "The Jews, therefore, because it was the day of preparation, >so that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that >Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and >that they might be taken away." > > > > Solving the Problem > Again, the point of all this is that Jesus did not have to be killed on a >Friday in order for His crucifixion to precede the Sabbath because there >could have been two Sabbaths during the week of His crucifixion, depending >on what day of the week the high feast day fell on. If it fell on Saturday, >then there was only one Sabbath. But if it fell on another day of the week, >as it usually does, there would be two Sabbaths. > Take the year 31 AD for example. In that year the 14th of Nisan, the >Passover day on which Jesus would have been crucified, fell on Wednesday, >April 25th. The next day, Thursday, would have been the high feast day, and >therefore it would have been a Sabbath. > > Thus, if Jesus was crucified in the year 31, He would have been crucified >on Wednesday and buried that evening before the high feast day Sabbath >began. His body would have remained in the tomb for three days (Thursday, >Friday and Saturday) and three nights (Wednesday, Thursday and Friday), just >as He predicted. That means His resurrection would have taken place on >Saturday evening, April 28th. To the Jew, that would place the Lord's >resurrection on Sunday, the first day of the week, because the Jewish day >begins at sundown. > > > > The Crucial Clue > There is a clue in the Scriptures that the crucifixion week had two >Sabbaths. In Mark 15:47 we are told that Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother >of James remained at the tomb after Jesus had been buried. > In Mark 16:1 it says that the two of them bought spices to anoint the body >of Jesus after the Sabbath was over. But in Luke 23:56 it says they bought >the spices before the Sabbath and then rested on the Sabbath before >proceeding to the tomb on Sunday morning. > > There seems to be only one explanation of the apparent contradiction in >these verses. After resting on the high day Sabbath on Thursday, the ladies >bought the spices on Friday and then rested again on the regular weekly >Sabbath on Saturday before proceeding to the tomb on Sunday morning. This >explains how they could have bought the spices both before and after the >Sabbath. They bought them after the high Sabbath on Thursday but before the >regular Sabbath on Saturday. > > > > An Amazing Corroboration > A fascinating fact that also indicates that the resurrection occurred in >31 AD is to be found in the writings of Josephus, the first century Jewish >historian. He says the last Jubilee that was celebrated in the land (before >the Roman conquest in 70 AD) began in the fall of 27 AD. > That date most likely marks the beginning of Jesus' ministry, for His >ministry was a symbolic fulfillment of the Jubilee promises. This is >indicated by the scripture that Jesus read in the synagogue in Nazareth when >He launched His public ministry (Luke 4:16-24 & Isaiah 61:1-2): > > The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the >Gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And >recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are downtrodden, To >proclaim the favorable year of the Lord. > It is commonly agreed that the ministry of Jesus lasted 3 1/2 years. A >launching date in the fall of 27 AD to coincide with the beginning of the >Jubilee would place His death in the spring of 31 AD - the year in which the >Passover week had two Sabbaths. > > A Final Problem > Another point of controversy about the resurrection week concerns the >nature of the Lord's last supper with His disciples. The church has >traditionally taught that this was the Passover meal. But the scriptures >clearly indicate that the meal was eaten the evening before Passover. > Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Passover. In fact, >He died at three o'clock in the afternoon at the precise moment that the >Passover lambs were beings slaughtered for the Passover meal that evening >(Matthew 27:45-46). Jesus and His disciples had eaten their last meal >together the evening before Passover. Yet, Jesus referred to His last meal >with His disciples as "keeping the Passover" (Matthew 26:18). So, it must >have been a Passover meal that was celebrated one evening early. > > Professor Harold Hoehner of Dallas Theological Seminary has proposed a >solution to this problem. He says there is evidence that the Galilean Jews >reckoned time differently from the Judean Jews. Whereas the Judean Jews >counted a day from sunset to sunset, the Galilean Jews, according to >Hoehner, counted a day from sunrise to sunrise. If this is true, then Jesus >and His disciples, being Galileans, would have celebrated Passover one >evening earlier than their Jewish brethren in the Jerusalem area. (See >"Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ" by Harold W. Hoehner.) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > A Summary of the Order of Events > Regarding the Death, Burial and Resurrection > of Jesus in 31 AD > 1) Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover meal on a Tuesday evening >(April 24th) in the Upper Room on Mount Zion. > 2) After the Passover meal, Jesus and His disciples departed the Upper >Room and walked to the Garden of Gethsemane in the Kidron Valley between the >Old City and the Mount of Olives. > > 3) Jesus was betrayed and arrested early Tuesday evening. His various >trials lasted throughout Tuesday night and early Wednesday morning. > > 4) Jesus was crucified at about 9:00 am on Wednesday morning (April 25th). >At noon, darkness filled the land. At about 3:00 pm Jesus died. > > 5) Jesus was buried on Wednesday about sunset. > > 6) The two Marys waited until after the high Sabbath on Thursday (April >26th) to purchase the spices for the anointing of Jesus' body. They bought >the spices on Friday (April 27th) and then rested again during the regular >Sabbath on Saturday (April 28th) before returning to the tomb on Sunday >morning (April 29th). > > 7) The resurrection of Jesus occurred on Saturday evening (Sunday by >Judean reckoning of time). The resurrection was discovered on Sunday morning >when the women returned to the tomb. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > What Difference Does It Make? > Lest you be tempted to write all this off as much ado about nothing, let >me explain why I think it is important. Prophecy and its fulfillment >validate Jesus as who He said He was - namely, God in the flesh. Prophecy >and its fulfillment also validate the Bible as the inspired Word of God. >Prophecy must be fulfilled precisely, not approximately. > The precise fulfillment of prophecy regarding the First Coming of Jesus is >our assurance that all the prophecies regarding His Second Coming will also >be fulfilled completely to the last detail. God will not forget or overlook >anything. He is true to His Word. He keeps His promises. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allen Daves" <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 2:46 PM >Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Calendar query > > > > >>Carl, >> >>I usually try to avoid these conversations as they tend to become endless >>debates among academics. However, I will just say that the scripture is >>clear ,plain & it is easily understood with out any difficult reading, if >>you accept it the same way that you might " the Sun Stood still". I will >>not continue this here, as you are right. We will just take away from this >>forum. I would be happy to discuss it with you otherwise. >> >> >> >>Allen >> >>Carl Felland <cfelland@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>Allen, >>At the risk of remaining off the subject of geocentrism I'd like to >>share my thoughts on the three days and three nights in the heart of the >>earth. >> >>I was recently worshipping with a group that was held together by the >>understanding that Messiah was in the grave for a full 72 hours. >>However, this belief has been challenged. I find no direct correlation >>in the Bible of the sign of Jonah and Messiah being dead in the grave. >>In Jewish thought the heart of the earth is Jerusalem. Cross >>referencing this term in the Scriptures can show someone on the surface, >>as in a ship in the midst of the sea (Pro 30:19). Jonah was alive >>inside the whale although he felt like he was in Sheol. I think Messiah >>was prophetically telling the length of his ministry on earth as being >>three full years, from his initial cleansing of the temple in the first >>spring of his ministry to his final cleansing of the temple and his >>passion three years later. I had always wondered about Messiah telling >>his mother that his time had not come at the wedding in Cana of Galilee. >>His baptism in the fall was a preparation for the ministry that would >>begin the following spring. Others guess that the sign of Jonah >>referred to a three day period that encompassed the time that Messiah >>gave himself over into man's control. One the other side, Messiah >>clearly and repeatedly states that he was going to rise from the dead on >>the third day. I have found that fitting the 72 hours was forced and >>necessitated taking pieces from each Gospel rather than taking each >>Gospel account at face value. Apparent problems such as the women >>preparing spices before the Sabbath and buying spices after the Sabbath >>are understood as being separate events. Matthew 28: 1 had iced the 72 >>hour belief for me; now I look at it given the weight of evidence on the >>other side and have to reconsider my previous understanding. >> >>Carl >> >>Allen Daves wrote: >> >> >> >>>You could have counted it that way, However, it plainly states "three >>>days" and "three nights" in the heart of .... The >>>key to understanding this is to relize that although you could have >>>reconed the time as Carl indicated here, if ther was no additional >>>information. Howerver this verse is plainly qualifiying what is ment. as >>>for the passover though it was a particular day the whole week was >>>considered part of the event, and festivities akin to the way that we >>>celibrate 12 days of Christmas, at lest we used to or "thanksgiving >>>week". >>> >>>Allen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>earth. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>Robert Bennett wrote: >>>Cheryl, >>> >>>There are two things needed to compare our present method of measuring >>>time >>>with the Biblical Jews: >>> >>>The day was - and still is - measured from sundown to sundown - cf. the >>>first 6 days. >>>Any part of a day was considered a day - no division into hours, etc. >>> >>>>From 3 PM Friday to 7 AM Sunday we would term 40 hours, or less than 2 >>> >>> >>>>days. >>>> >>>> >>>The Jews would reckon this as 3 days. >>> >>>Robert >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>[mailto:geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Cheryl >>>>Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 11:26 AM >>>>To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Calendar query >>>> >>>> >>>>Allen -- I forgot about that verse. Do you have a way to harmonize this >>>>with the passages Carl cites? I'm sure they can be, but I don't >>>>know how to >>>>do it. Cheryl >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Allen Daves" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 11:10 AM >>>>Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Calendar query >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Matthew 12: 39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and >>>>>adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be >>>>>given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: >>>>>40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>whale's belly; so >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the >>>>>earth. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Carl -- I agree with you that Jesus was not in the grave for three days >>>>>but >>>>>rather a day or less. >>>>> >>>>>We celebrated Seder (sp?) at our church this year on Thursday before >>>>>Easter. >>>>>It was the first time I'd ever gone to one, and I loved it. We had no >>>>>choice but to celebrate it on the wrong date because it would make no >>>>>sense >>>>>to celebrate it after the Easter date ordained by, I guess, the Roman >>>>>Catholics. Cheryl >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Carl Felland" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 5:38 PM >>>>>Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Calendar query >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Neville, >>>>>> >>>>>>The short answer is "No." >>>>>> >>>>>>My longer response is two-fold. First, that your thesis would >>>>>>necessitate the understanding that the New Moon is the Full Moon and >>>>>>second, that the Gospels do not show Messiah in the grave for >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>three days. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Passover and the first day of Unleavened Bread fall in the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>middle of the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>month on the 14th and 15th, respectively. Now, there is a very small >>>>>>group of people who argue that the New Moon is the Full Moon, which may >>>>>>allow your thesis. I can't see this as a possibility because of history >>>>>>and logic. History, as in dictionary definitions, shows the New Moon >>>>>>being firstly astonomical new moon and secondly a crescent moon. >>>>>>Logically, the two primary divisions of the moon's appearance >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>from earth >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>are when it is visible and when it is not visible. The period when it >>>>>>is not visible is that unique period of time each month that I argue is >>>>>>a "month-end/beginning" holiday. The Full Moon is still important, but >>>>>>as the second sabbath of the month and being at the beginning of the >>>>>>pilgramage feasts of Unleavened Bread in the first month and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>Tabernacles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>in the seventh month. >>>>>> >>>>>>Concerning the Gospel accounts... In Mark 15: 42 "And now when the even >>>>>>was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the >>>>>>sabbath," we see Messiah's death and burial on the preparation, the day >>>>>>before the sabbath. Exodus 16:5 shows that the day before the weekly >>>>>>sabbath is a preparation. The next reference to sabbath is Mark 16: 1 >>>>>>"And when the sabbath was past..." Logically, this would be the same >>>>>>sabbath that was referred to in Mark 15: 42. Compare also Luke 23: 54- >>>>>>24: 1. >>>>>> >>>>>>In Matthew 27: 62 "Now the next day, that followed the day of the >>>>>>preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>unto Pilate," >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>we see again the preparation and based on the above evidence the next >>>>>>day would be the sabbath. Continuing on to Matthew 28: 1 again we have >>>>>>the women going to the tomb after the sabbath on the first day of the >>>>>>week. [An alternately punctuated Matthew 27: 66 - Matthew 28: 1 as "So >>>>>>they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>setting a >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>watch in the end of the sabbath. As it began to dawn toward the first >>>>>>[day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the >>>>>>sepulchre." may better hamonize the Gospels.] In John 19:31 "The Jews >>>>>>therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not >>>>>>remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an >>>>>>high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] >>>>>>they might be taken away." The preparation was for a weekly sabbath >>>>>>day, that also happened to be an high day. In John 19: 42- 20: 1 again >>>>>>we see no gaps in the sequence of 1st day) preparation where death and >>>>>>burial occurred (Passover), 2nd day) sabbath in the grave (First day of >>>>>>Unleavened Bread), and 3rd day) first day of the week with resurrection >>>>>>(Wave Sheath offering). This sequence fits the resurrection on the >>>>>>third day as in Luke 24:46 "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and >>>>>>thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third >>>>>>day:" >>>>>> >>>>>>On another note, I found a error in my Biblical Calendar overview. >>>>>>Towards the end in the New Moon section the last sentence should read >>>>>>"The crescent may be easily visible after twenty four to thirty six >>>>>>hours depending on location, local conditions, lag time, etc." >>>>>> >>>>>>Carl >>>>>> >>>>>>Dr. Neville Jones wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Carl, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sorry, I meant the Sabbath on the 29th, which precedes the New >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>Moon, and >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>thus explains the gap before the "first day of the week." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yours in Christ, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Neville. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"Dr. Neville Jones" wrote: >>>>>>>Carl, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In your opinion, is it possible that Christ's execution took >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>place on the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>day before a New Moon, thus explaining how he was in the memorial tomb >>>>>>>for >>>>>>>three days? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Neville. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Send instant messages to your online friends >>>>>>>http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >-- No attachments (even text) are allowed -- >-- Type: image/jpeg >-- File: davidtop.jpg > > >-- No attachments (even text) are allowed -- >-- Type: image/jpeg >-- File: GardenTomb1.jpg > > >-- No attachments (even text) are allowed -- >-- Type: image/gif >-- File: 0518-1.gif > > > >. > > >