[geocentrism] Re: "Biblical Numerology"
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 06:47:42 +1000
Jack. When you talk of this mumerology, would it not only apply to the original language and format of the writing. Surely the translation into Greek or Latin or English et al would destroy any format, even though the conceptual message remains. Curious. Philip ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Lewis To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:31 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: "Biblical Numerology" Dear Neville, I'm a little disappointed that inspite of writing the caveat, shown in red, twice in consecutive e-mails, you have still ignored it and lumped what I was saying in with your conceptions. However I do attach a warning to much of what is on the web generally as it is seen by some as a 'band-wagon' to be climbed on. Some discernment will be necessary when surfing the web! So let me say yet again that the numerical phenomena that I was talking about has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BIBLE CODES YOU DESCRIBE, PROPHECIES, MOBY DICK, ISLAM OR ANY OTHER KIND OF CODIFIED CONTORTIONS CLAIMED THAT ASCRIBES OTHER MEANINGS WITHIN THE BIBLE PASSAGES USED. The following is taken from a small book that I have just read in which the author disassociates himself from the bizarre exercises that some people have indulged in. These have been sensationalized to the point that they would try to override the ultimate meaning of the Bible. The two examples that I included in my first posting are taken from this book but there are many others and many that were not included since it was only a small book. At the end of the book the author asks, 'Well, what do you think of it all?' He then goes on to state: (in blue) 'You will notice that skip sequences (ELS's) in the examples of the names of Yeshua hidden in the text of the Hebrew are not large ones.' 'You will notice that I have not made reference to obscure discoveries.' 'You will notice that no attempt has been made to predict the future.' 'You will notice that we have limited the search only to those verses that clearly have a Messianic meaning, and without a doubt have their application in the person of Yeshua.' 'You will notice that we have not searched for any word or name that pops up, but have exclusively identified one single word - YESHUA.' 'Such a discovery, given the nature of the limitations placed upon the search, and the conclusion that can be drawn, mean that the chances of such a happening would be, in the natural, simply IMPOSSIBLE.' The author concludes by advising: 'not to go looking for hidden messages in the Bible. There is sufficient amount of information in the plain meaning of the Bible (just as Martin pointed out) to ensure that the honest, open-minded seeker for the truth, (could this be you Neville?) will discover the truth that leads to everlasting life. Do not waste your time trying to find irrelevant hidden meanings in the Bible Codes, but devote your time to getting to know the God of the Bible and the truth contained within it.' With this statement the author is clearly distancing himself from the improper study of this phenomena. Regarding the level of authority that is associated with these numbers, he says they are no more than a 'watermark' to the authenticity of the Bible just as a watermark on a banknote attests to its authenticity. The water mark on its own has no value just as a banknote WITHOUT the watermark also has no value. So quoting from my original e-mail: 'The O.T is full of these numerical phenomena in such a way as it cannot possibly be accidental, therefore it is safe to assume the same applies to the N.T. This phenomena cannot be of man's origin. You couldn't begin to find this in any other book. There is no 'jiggery-pokery' or 'hocus-pocus' in this observed phenomena. It's there and cannot be ignored. Both Hebrew and Greek have numerical values to their letters. This is how the Hebrew scribes made sure that the copies of the scriptures they wrote were accurate both literarily and numerically.' The association between Hebrew characters and numbers is all part of their culture and acrostics were a normal feature of their writing. This is not something that we can appreciate from our own culture. Attempts have been made but they simply do not work. On looking at the link you offered and although this was not what he set out to do, Brendan McKay proved this by his own experiments! I doubt very much if he could come up with or devise something that would debunk the precise numerology that I was talking about. However I am open to consider any possibilities. Regards to all Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr. Neville Jones To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:38 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: "Biblical Numerology" Jack Lewis <jack.lewis@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: As I see it Neville's problem is likely to be that the phenomena appears in those scriptures that he has rejected. Wrong again, Jack. For your information - Brendan McKay is a mathematician from Australia, and one of the most vocal and tenacious critics of the Bible Codes. He has been notably successful in reproducing the "code" phenomenon in works other than the Bible. As just one example, McKay was the one who found the now infamous assassination predictions in Moby Dick. The cornerstone of Drosnin's book The Bible Code is his finding of the supposed prediction of the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. In a Newsweek interview, Drosnin made the claim that if anyone could find assassination predictions in other works besides the Bible, he would, essentially, shut up about the Bible Code. McKay responded by finding no less than nine similar "predictions" in the text of Moby Dick. (So far, Drosnin has not recanted his faith in the Bible Code.) McKay has made debunking numerical 'miracles' almost a side profession. His web site In Search of Mathematical Miracles (see Resources) includes articles and exhibits related to earlier projects -- debunking the 'miraculous' patterns of the number 19 found in the Quran, the patterns of 7 and other numbers found by Ivan Panin in the text of the Bible and various other miracle number claims. McKay felt that he had seen it all -- and that he had provided what were distinctly non-supernatural, mathematical explanations. But the "famous rabbis" experiment was something new. Here was a bona fide claim to a mathematical miracle, put forward in the language of serious mathematics, even published in a respected journal, Statistical Science (Witztum et al., 1994). On the surface, the famous rabbis experiment seems straightforward. The Israelis Witztum, Rips and Rosenberg took the names of 32 famous rabbis, matched these names with their dates of death and birth, and checked the text of Genesis to see if the names and dates were "coded" closely to one another in the text. In other words, they searched the text to see if the names and dates appeared in letter sequences spaced at equidistant intervals, sequences known as ELSs, and how "closely" these sequences appeared to each other (please see part 1 of this article for a more complete discussion of ELSs). To check their results, the Israelis ran the same test on 999,999 random combinations of the data. If the names and dates really were encoded in the text, they reasoned, the correct name and date matchings would be much closer to each other than the random combinations. This simple concept led to an explosive result. In their test, the ELSs for the correctly matched names and dates were closer to each other than in all but 4 of the random combinations. This indicated a significance level of 1 in 62,500 -- enough, it would seem, to convince even the most hardened of skeptics that the Israelis were on to something. In his book, Drosnin reports a confirming 'miracle:' Harold Gans, a senior code-breaker with the U.S. National Security Administration, decided to check the results for himself. He took the Israelis' data and added the places of birth of the rabbis. Then he ran the experiment again, using the Israelis' mathematical models, but his own computer program. Again, Drosnin reports, the results were positive. The correctly matched data beat out the random data at odds of well over random chance. Nevertheless, McKay was skeptical. Shortly after the publication of Drosnin's book, McKay, along with several other scientists including Dror Bar-Natan from Hebrew University in Israel, ran their own version of the Witztum Rips and Rosenberg ("WRR") experiment. The results, presented in the same inscrutable scientific format as the original, were negative -- no result. Where WRR had found results of 1 in 62,500, McKay and company, using almost identical protocol and methods, found nothing -- only random chance at work. What was happening here? McKay's explanation is that the WRR experiment is not as straightforward as it seems at first glance. From the descriptions of the experiment that appear in Drosnin's book as well as other sources (including best-selling Christian author Grant Jeffrey's The Signature of God) it appears that the Israelis simply took a list of 32 famous rabbis' names, with the corresponding birth and death dates, and searched for these in the text of Genesis. In reality, the situation is much more complex. First, each rabbi's name was matched with two dates, birth and death. Then, each date was entered in three formats, analogous to representing a date in English as "1st January," "1st of January," "on 1st January." Then, the number of names used for each rabbi varied from one to eleven (e.g., using variant spellings and nicknames), so that for the 32 rabbis, there were a total of over 100 names. For each rabbi, they then proceeded to take all combinations of names and dates, so that the eventual data set represented hundreds of combinations of names and dates. The problem is that, with the increasing number of data points, the experimenters can "fine tune" the data set, perhaps even unconsciously, in order to produce more and more significant results. To demonstrate this point as forcefully as possible, Bar-Natan and McKay performed a follow-up experiment. They took the original set of names and dates from the famous rabbis experiment, and made a small number of changes (around 30) to names and dates, all carefully justified in the body of their report. With this newly fine-tuned set of data, they ran the experiment again on the text of Genesis, and on the Hebrew text of War and Peace. The results were amazing: in War and Peace, the famous rabbis were found encoded at significance levels of nearly 1 in 1,000,000! But in Genesis, the results were not much better than random chance. In reality, Bar-Natan and McKay had cooked their data in the same way that they allege WRR cooked theirs, but this time in order to "find" the names in War and Peace. Dr. Barry Simon, IBM professor of Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at CalTech, comments: I've no doubt there will be loud arguments on the Internet about the validity of each change they made, but to me the point is that the fact that they can make this list of simple changes and turn the results of [WRR] upside down shows that the Famous Rabbis example is totally dependent on the particular choice of names used in a way that makes me doubt the validity of the enterprise (Simon, 1997) After McKay is through with the famous rabbis experiment, it seems as though the cornerstone of Bible Codes research has been very seriously undermined, and the whole building is starting to sway. From http://www.scp-inc.org/publications/newsletters/N2203/Bible_Codes_part_2.html as at 22.05.2007. Regards, Neville. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.1/822 - Release Date: 28/05/2007 11:40 AM
- [geocentrism] Re: "Biblical Numerology"
- From: Jack Lewis
- [geocentrism] Re: "Biblical Numerology"