Neville said: "[cutting out all the mockery and insults] Now, in an earlier posting you said that you had some thoughts on the celestial poles argument, but that you were too busy. Perhaps you have a little spare time now? Since you can find time to laugh, perhaps you can find time to think? Let's say that I grant you a distance to Polaris of 430 light-years (or whatever figure you want). Why, then, does Polaris appear to trace out a small circle on the celestial sphere each sidereal day?" Because it's not exactly aligned with the rotational axis of the Earth. There is no reason why it should be. It's just coincidence that it's fairly near. "1) Blah, blah, amino acids were made by God. 2) Telling anyone on this forum to "shut up" is not acceptable language. I hope that you will find it in your heart to offer Jack a simple apology, such that the matter can then be forgotten." Jack, I am sorry I told you to give some definite evidence or shut up. You have done neither! "Can you not see that your writing software has no bearing on whether there is a probe or not? Furthermore, the Chinese, Europeans and Japanese are not sufficiently far advanced in their programmes to be attempting the sorts of things that the Americans and Russians attempted. So we're really only talking of a few that need to be "in on" the conspiracy." The Japanese sent probes to Mars. The Europeans send a probe to intercept comet Halley, and a probe to orbit and photograph Mars, and are on their way out to the Moon under ion-power. According to you, none of these things should have been possible. "Leave if you want to, Rob. You subscribed yourself to this forum without my holding your hand, and you can unsubscribe yourself in a similar manner. You are an intelligent man, but that does not mean that you are wise." Snag seems to be, you can subscribe yourself to freelist forums, but you seem to have to ask the moderator to remove you. Anyway, I can just, I suppose, divert mail from here direct to the deleted folder. I do think I've reached the end of my tether now. Your most recent pronouncements (namely, the Moon has no gravity, NASA faked Mariner 4 using 'virtual reality', there is no such thing as time) are getting further and further 'out there'. Jack has now declared he's no intention of supporting any of his arguments with evidence, so I am no longer on any kind of level playing field. Off I go then. All the best for the future - I'll keep an eye on the website and may one day see you or Jack or Philip at Badastronomy.... maybe. Rob. This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied, disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you.