[geocentrism] Re: 666

Here are the attachments  I forgot to send ....they are web pages i wrote not 
finished but usable correlations and relationships...............

    1. Yes, now I think we are getting somewhere....You made a valid point and 
although I was not giving it a lot of consideration I was not doing so because 
it had no bearing on the issue before us... .. I thought we were arguing the 
Persian kings chronologies and dates and how those relate to 70 weeks and how 
that relates to 666..When you kept referencing the dates for the chapters I 
could not make sense of your comments that?s why I kept after you to concede. 
If your argument was based on the dates for the chapters, then there was/is no 
argument to make.......nor would it affect any of my arguments......In any 
case, thank you for pointing that out ....However, lets continue with the 
preeminent issues, Persian kings Chrono, the 70 weeks and 666 years or 666th 
year...
  2. And as for the can of worms, I wrote my comments here so as to tie that 
and many other things together. Although they are not it is not dependent on 
each other they are worth consideration. I do not want to entirely detract from 
the whole 70 weeks and 666 thing which is the (666 thread)/my primary 
focus...see my comments below on the "can-o-worms"
   
  In the mean time, we've opened another can of worms: the identity of the 
visually stunning individual at Dan. 10:4-8, and whether that is Jesus or an 
angel (the angel of v. 9ff). I've already pointed out that a minority of 
commentators agree with you (Young, Keil, Henry, etc.), and being in the 
minority doesn't mean they (or you) are wrong. But none of these scholars calls 
the majority view "nonsense," for they realize that their own hypothesis is 
hardly free of problems. So, while I have respect for their scholarship 
(meaning I won't label the Jesus hypothesis "nonsense"), it's important not to 
sweep its problems under the rug. Responsible scholarship proceeds by 
acknowledging problems and working out tenable solutions, not labeling the 
opposing view "nonsense." None of the scholars who agrees with you as to the 
being's identity think that this is a vision of the future: it was Jesus as he 
was in His glory on 24 Nisan, 3rd year of Cyrus. They believe the message
 concerning things to come follows once Daniel is prepared to hear it, which is 
more than a dozen verses later in the narrative.
   
   
  The Key to understanding is the "certain man" & the "Voice of many waters" 
and the other parallels to Christ found in Revelation............... it has 
everything to do with the narration of ch's 11&12 which themselves are related 
to ch8 and the time of trouble such as never was....Ch 10 again....
   
  10:5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man 
clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6. His body 
also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his 
eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished 
brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude..........8 
Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no 
strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I 
retained no strength. 9. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard 
the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face 
toward the ground. It does not record those words spoken by the man in the 
vison JESUS..Daniel fell asleep..... It only records what took place latter, 
the interpretation of the dream by the angel who had the appearance of a man 
but not a man...the Vison is of a "CERTAIN MAN"
  10. And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the 
palms of my hands. ..................it does not say the hand of the one who?s 
voice I heard in the vison...In the vison Daniel fell asleep when he heard the 
voice of the vison that had the sound of many waters.
  
  10:18. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, 
and he strengthened me,
  It does not say the appearance of the "certain man" described in 
v5-7.........Again the Angel has the "appearance of a man" but the vison was 
specific to a "CERTAIN MAN" . The Certain Man is Jesus who came in the latter 
days to which the following chapters 11& 12 are also in referenced to his 
days....The whole vison is verse 5-7 v9 is narration of what took place next 
and 10 is where next the angel ( one that had the appearance of a man) even 
comes into this narrative. 
   
  This man Jesus is describe here as someone coming in the latter days and 
revelation describes that same Certain man who is...JESUS not any angel past or 
present.
  The problem is also most folk don?t understand the significance of having the 
voice of many waters ..it makes no sense for an angel to even use that kind of 
voice, It can only refer to Jesus!
  Daniel 10:5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man 
clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6. His body 
also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his 
eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished 
brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude..........8 
Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no 
strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I 
retained no strength. 9. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard 
the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face 
toward the ground.
  Revelation 1:11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, 
What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are 
in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, 
and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12. And I turned to 
see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden 
candlesticks; 13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the 
Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps 
with a golden girdle. 14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white 
as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15. And his feet like unto fine 
brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many 
waters.
  Revelation 2:18. And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These 
things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and 
his feet are like fine brass;
   
  Revelation 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and 
with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written 
in their foreheads. 2. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many 
waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers 
harping with their harps:
  Revelation 19:5. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, 
all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6. And I heard 
as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and 
as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God 
omnipotent reigneth.
  The significance of the voice with the sound of many waters is the waters are 
the many different peoples of God that is why Christ has the sound of many 
waters we are the many waters, The Body of Christ!?.The harlot too sits on many 
waters which is also many different peoples we are distinguished by Head of 
Jesus Christ??.The Church is the Body of Christ Where Christ is the head but 
the head of the beast was Babylon?Where Mystery Babylon is distinguished by its 
Head ?.the feet Rome always are called by the name of the Head they are 
attached to. BABYLON "let him who hath understanding count the number of the 
beast for it is the number of a man and is number is 666".
  That is why the Certain man in Daniel ch10 has the voice of many waters that 
is the significance to Ch 10-12 and at that time a time of trouble such as 
never was Jesus points that out It is Jesus that is Pouring out the desolation 
in ch9 via the Golden cup (see Attached zip Golden Cup of ) of wrath the harlot 
sits on many waters Revelation 17: 1. And there came one of the seven angels 
which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I 
will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many 
waters:?.. 4. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and 
decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her 
hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5.And upon her 
forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS 
AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of 
the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and
 when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.?? 
  Jeremiah 51:7. Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made 
all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the 
nations are mad. 8. Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; 
take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
  Revelation 14:8. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, 
is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of 
the wrath of her fornication.
  The whole point to referring to Babylon it was not destroyed back in the 
day!???? Jeremiah is a prophecy about the spiritual city of blood (see attached 
zip City of Blood)not just a Physical kingdom of his day ..contrasted with the 
City New Jerusalem which is a spiritual city not a physical one???..
  Revelation 19:7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the 
marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready?. 12. His 
eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a 
name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13. And he was clothed with a 
vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God..
   
  Revelation 21:2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down 
from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 9. And 
there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of 
the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew 
thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a 
great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, 
descending out of heaven from God,
   
   
  The correlations found in scripture define scripture not men?s ill conceived 
lack of discernment. ....Like most things folk have it all backwards. The book 
of Daniel does not supercede Revelation, it is Jesus & in his Revelation that 
expounds upon Daniel and the rest of the OT... Never mind any notions about 
relating the Angel in Daniel to Jesus, Worse, it is Jesus they are attempting 
to ascribe to as an Angel..!?. 


"Martin G. Selbrede" <mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:   
    On May 30, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Allen Daves wrote:

    Apparently, you have been focused on the dates for the chapters where I 
thought we were addressing arguments for the dates & Persian kings 
chronology... Which, I thought was the preeminent issue before us that we were 
arguing but apparently , you say we were not...
  "I already SAID -- repeatedly -- that your chronology doesn't necessarily 
depend on your persistent distortion of the meaning of Daniel 11:1, so it made 
no sense to me why you kept defending an indefensible position."
  I have said repeatedly that it would not matter in any case if ch 11 were in 
3rd year of Cyrus recording events (some or all) that took place earlier, 
specifically the 1st year of Darius, which came before.
  Again, the issue that is preeminent before us is the 666 years its relation 
to 70 weeks and how the Persian kings Chronology all fits together.
   
  So where are we?....
  If Ch 10-12 are all given in 3rd year of Cyrus........11:1 takes place in 1st 
year of Darius even if everything else that follows is part of the narration 
that took place in the 3rd year of Cyrus....?.


  

  Very close, Allen, very close.  11:1 and the verse right before it apply to 
the 1st year of Darius, although the backward-looking statement in those two 
back-to-back verses was made by the angel to Daniel in the 3rd year of Cyrus. 
Yes. This is all I have been arguing for for days (it seems like weeks), 
nothing more (so far). The REASON we got hung up on this issue is because I 
originally said that the 70 weeks prophecy was delivered 2 years before the 
prophecies of chapters 10-12 and you said this was nonsense, that 11:1 proved 
that chapter eleven, and twelve were delivered to Daniel in the same year as 
the 70 weeks prophecy. This has been the entire dispute. 

      ..Yes, I have been too strict/ monochromatic in presenting/ applying Dan 
11:1 as it relates to dates for everything else that follows( although could 
be, not necessarily) & even when ch 10,11 & 12 were given (not nessisary all 
the dates of all the events they record)..... I have forced an imperative that 
does not exist,(could be but not necessarily) due to the artificial one created 
by the chapters break, and my focus on the Chrono (dates)of the kings rather 
then the Chrono(dates) of the chapters.... 
  

  Yes, we're getting somewhere here.

    However, in any case, this does and would not affect anything in the 
preeminent issues before us, 70 weeks & the Persian kings chrono and 
specifically the date of any events surrounding the 1st year of Darius..(Ch 
10-12 could all be recorded narrative in the 3rd year of Cyrus but Ch9 would 
not be in the 3rd year of Cyrus, I understood you to say that from earlier..?)

  

  Correct. The mere fact that they were delivered to Daniel in different years 
doesn't necessarily mean they cover different ground, but you appeared to be 
invested in the idea that you had to make good on them being delivered at the 
same time, for reasons unknown to me. What I did was attack the flank of this 
faulty handling of the chapter break, because chapter breaks (surprise) aren't 
canonical -- they were inserted by people who were guessing. There are plenty 
of bad chapter breaks in the English Bible, usually perpetuated due to 
tradition (which is fine for the many, many good chapter breaks, but bad for 
the handful that can mislead the unwary believer).

    ....Nor would this affect the fact that there are events in these chapters 
that relate to the 1st year of Darius (whatever they may or may not be exactly)
  

  True, I never said that there weren't events in Chapter 10-12 related to the 
1st year of Darius. We may disagree on the extent of what is touched on in that 
backward glance, but on this general principle we are agreed.  I identify the 
events as those from 10:21 to 11:1, in the angel's explanation to Daniel about 
how the spiritual warfare is going and who's helping who on the Lord's side of 
it.

    A..What ever they be, those events come before Cyrus not after.
  

  Yes, by definition, an event that occurred 2 years earlier would not fall in 
the present as seen from Daniel's perspective as he listened to the angel speak 
to him on 24 Nisan, 3rd Year of Cyrus.

    B..More importantly to the major issue before us,( the Persian kings chrono 
and how that relates to 70 weeks and how 70 weeks relates to 666years or 666th 
year......) it would have no bearing on the Persian kings Chronology 
whatsoever.......
  

  That would be my guess, and I've said so at least four or five times now in 
these exchanges as I questioned your insistence on arguing for something that 
didn't appear to be germane to your primary focus.
  

  So, maybe we are (at long last) past this sticking point and can move on.
  

  In the mean time, we've opened another can of worms: the identity of the 
visually stunning individual at Dan. 10:4-8, and whether that is Jesus or an 
angel (the angel of v. 9ff). I've already pointed out that a minority of 
commentators agree with you (Young, Keil, Henry, etc.), and being in the 
minority doesn't mean they (or you) are wrong. But none of these scholars calls 
the majority view "nonsense," for they realize that their own hypothesis is 
hardly free of problems. So, while I have respect for their scholarship 
(meaning I won't label the Jesus hypothesis "nonsense"), it's important not to 
sweep its problems under the rug. Responsible scholarship proceeds by 
acknowledging problems and working out tenable solutions, not labeling the 
opposing view "nonsense." None of the scholars who agrees with you as to the 
being's identity think that this is a vision of the future: it was Jesus as he 
was in His glory on 24 Nisan, 3rd year of Cyrus. They believe the message
 concerning things to come follows once Daniel is prepared to hear it, which is 
more than a dozen verses later in the narrative.
  

  In any event, it looks like we're finally over the 11:1 issue and will be 
able to grapple with more substantive issues regarding the Persian chronology 
you've worked out.  
  

  I'm praying I'm not wrong about that!  It was starting to get depressing, 
walking on the same landmine repeatedly to no avail.
  

  Respectfully,
  

  Martin
  






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