[geocentrism] Re: 666
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
All you've done here is prove my point. You've cited the very verses that
establish my position in minute detail.
WHAT...!?.....Unless your point was
1.There was a vision given in Ch10;
2.Ch 10 is not a prologue to the events that took place in ch11;
3.Ch 10 does discuss events that took place in the Future and latter days;
4.Ch10 was given in th3rd year of Cyrus
5.where Ch 11, &12 are not a sequential part to Ch 10 but rather evnets that
took place in the 1st year of Daruis who came before Cyrus......Grammatically
and textually imparitive
I proved those..so I'm not sure what you are talking about.......... and I am
not convinced yet that you even understand your own points, if in fact I have
made yours for you.....???
.
You stated "The 10th chapter NEVER discusses anything in the future,..I
proved you wrong
You stated "the 10th chapter is a prologue to ch 11 ...I proved that it is a
vison unto itself 1.that was understood for precisely the reason that the
previous Visons of ch 2,7 8,11& 12 outlined a time frame for the kingdom where
Ch10 describes the king and demonstrated in revelation.....
2 your position directly contradicts Daniel ch 11:1 " in the first year of
Darius...." ..the Persian kings chronology that " I PROVED" precludes your
construct......AS for 11's grammatical layout it is relayed as something that
had taken place in the past even if it were being told in the third year of
Cyrus.....Darius past Cyrus future...... my point not yours!......... & that
argument is even found within ch 10 & 11 grammatically.... and the Persian
kings Chronology is independently of those arguments....so even if the evesnt
of Ch 11 are bieng recored latter ......You still have no argument.. (the
evnets themselves took place earlier)......... I have already destroyed them
all........
Here is the proof for the future events of ch 10's vision....look
closeer.....I used color & size to make it easy
Daniel 10: 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed
unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but
the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding
of the vision. 2. In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. 3. I
ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I
anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.
Here is 1. THE VISON that talks about things in the future that you stated it
did not..
4. And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side
of the great river, which is Hiddekel;.............. 5. Then I lifted up mine
eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were
girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his
face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his
arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words
like the voice of a multitude.
Revelation 1:14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as
snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15. And his feet like unto fine
brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many
waters. 16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went
a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his
strength. 17. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his
right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18.
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;
and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 2:18. And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These
things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and
his feet are like fine brass;
Jesus did not get those eyes, feet and Voice until He came, He died and He
revived!...Revelation ch 1 is the Triumphant Christ which is what Daniel saw
and could understand for he had been given all the other visions all previously
....yWhich he would have need in order to fully understand.....Just like we can
today, but only if you put them in order!.( Persian kings
chrono)..................your assertions are baseless and misguided
The vision (one is most definitely is discuses the future) outlined given in
Ch 10 in the third year of Cyrus. It is not a prologue! Ch 11 is given in the
1st year of Darius ..Dan 11:1 which is in the same format as Dan 9......all the
vision s arabout setting upt the kingdom and Christ is KIng..what Danile saw
was the King
.
The vison in Ch 10 is of the triumphant KING . Who would be king of the
kingdom that God would set up in the last Days......ch 10 never stated or
implied it was a prologue. However, men like you who do not understand and
refuse scripture descriptions of itself make that claim......you should know
the difference you obviously do not................So Again unless your point
was to concede to mine ...what ...!? I once again call for you to
concede.......that is if you have not already done so...????
P.S. Here is the 1st half of Proof for Persian kings Chrono look
close.......you obviously missed it.
Daruis the mead ?of the seed of the Medes? Ruled 1 year this is not the same
Daruis as Darius the Persian, for many obvious reasons ..(namely this one is
after Belshazzar who is before Cyrus where the latter one is clearly
demonstrated as being after Cyrus)....Note: Daniel 6:28. So this Daniel
prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian. note:
at this point Daniel is ~94 years old by Cyrus?s 3rd year. Daniel 5:30. In
that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31. And Darius the
Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.
Cyrus ?king of Persia? Ruled 3 years
Ahasuerus Ruled 12 years this is not the father of ?Darius the mead?
specifically because he is after Cyrus??.. Ezra 4:5. And hired counsellers
against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia,
even until the reign of Darius king of Persia. 6. And in the reign of
Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation
against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem. 7. And in the days of
Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions,
unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in
the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue. 8. Rehum the
chancellor and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to
Artaxerxes the king in this sort:??????? 23. Now when the copy of king
Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their
companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to
cease by force
and power. 24. Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at
Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of
Persia.
Artaxerxes king of Persia Ruled 32 years...... in his 20th year Nehemiah,
490 BC
Darius the Persian 6 years recorded... not the same as Daruis the mead for
many obvious reasons ..namely this one is after Cyrus...
Ezra 6: 1. Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the
house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. 2. And there
was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a
roll, and therein was a record thus written: 3. In the first year of Cyrus
.........& Foundations of temple laid in his 2nd year those who saw the
first saw the last?.
Ezra 3:12. But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who
were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this
house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted
aloud for joy:
Haggai 1:1. In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the
first day of the month, came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet
unto???..8. Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I
will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the Lord
Haggai 2:1. In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month,
came the word of the Lord by the prophet Haggai, saying,????. 10. In the four
and twentieth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, came the
word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet, saying, 11. Thus saith the Lord of
hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,???? 15. And now, I pray
you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a
stone in the temple of the Lord:??.. 18. Consider now from this day and upward,
from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the
foundation of the Lord's temple was laid, consider it.
.....
"Martin G. Selbrede" <mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen,
All you've done here is prove my point. You've cited the very verses that
establish my position in minute detail.
Thank you.
Of course, I've already cited the entire 10th chapter, and 37 verses of the
11th chapter, several posts back, so this is somewhat redundant of you, but you
have added pretty colors and underlines and bolds and font size changes.
Fortunately, I can still make out the words though the passage looks like a
circus poster with this formatting. And lo, there it is: everything as I said
it stood written.
But I see strange intercalations from your hand that mar and distort what is
being said, and I don't know why you are so intent on wreaking damage on
scripture like that. The scariest thing you're saying is that the individual
speaking to Daniel is Jesus, who evidently "needed help" in dealing with the
Persian king. Now the omnipotent creator of the universe is too weak to handle
a king without help? Do you not believe in the Trinity, Allen? What kind of
Second Person of the Trinity do you believe in, where the descriptions in
Chapter 10 of his lack of omnipotence and weakness are applied to Him? Bible
scholars regard the person speaking to be an angel, which alone makes sense (he
is one of the "glorious ones" that Jude 8 speaks of). Now that you make that
speaker into the Lord Jesus Christ, I guess it's Jesus who told a fib in Dan.
10:14, since you terminate Christ's speech in mid-stream at Dan. 11:1, which
(as the Bible scholars have said) was a completely wrong
place to insert a chapter break. And you yet again grossly mishandle the
chronology at 11:1. Do you assume that if you repeat a false theory long
enough, people will accept it?
Will wonders never cease in this dialogue? We've moved from merely insulting
an angel to the implication that Jesus isn't omnipotent, disobeyed the Father
(since the person described in Daniel 10 admits he was specifically sent to
Daniel to convey a message, says he's going to utter the message, and never
does, on your hypothesis), and as a consequence, lied to Daniel. You got to
this precarious point by cutting off the being's speech in midstream by faulty
treatment of the chapter division.
By their fruits ye shall know them. In other words, the implications of a
position are the fruits of it, and the fruit of your hypothesis is too bitter
and God-dishonoring for my taste. As Jesus said, "Wisdom is justified of her
children." The "children" or "implications/results" of your "wisdom" show how
debilitated it is. And I don't even know why you go down this path, because
it's not evident that your global Persian chronology requires such distortions
to advance its case.
Martin
On May 29, 2007, at 2:24 PM, Allen Daves wrote:
Me in blue
This, in my mind, is emblematic of the entire problem in this dialogue. Based
on the above statement, I'd conclude that you've never read the 10th chapter of
Daniel.
The emblematic problem here is you accuse me of not having read something
that you obviously have not read nor care to understand yourself... you
preferer other Comentators....
The 10th chapter NEVER discusses anything in the future, but the angel
promises to do so (v. 14) because this is the precise, self-confessed reason
for which he has appeared to Daniel.
Really....!? .........let me highlight it..again it is you who obviously have
not read it...
Daniel 10: 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed
unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but
the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding
of the vision. 2. In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. 3. I
ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I
anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.
4. And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side
of the great river, which is Hiddekel;.............. 5. Then I lifted up mine
eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were
girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of
lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in
colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a
multitude.
Revelation 1:14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as
snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15. And his feet like unto fine
brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many
waters. 16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went
a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his
strength. 17. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his
right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18.
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;
and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 2:18. And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These
things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and
his feet are like fine brass;
..Back to Daniel Ch 10.....7. And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men
that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so
that they fled to hide themselves.
8. Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained
no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I
retained no strength. 9. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard
the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face
toward the ground. 10. And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my
knees and upon the palms of my hands.11. And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man
greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand
upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me,
I stood trembling. 12. Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the
first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself
before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
The first year of Darius the mead was before Cyrus...and Danile ch 2 &7 even
before that...there are all related and discussing the same things
13. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days:
but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained
there with the kings of Persia. 14. Now I am come to make thee understand what
shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
As all the commentators have correctly noted,
You like " all the commentators" are not correct. The vision outlined and one
is most definitely outlined is given in Ch 10 in the third year of Cyrus. It is
not a prologue! Ch 11 is given in the 1st year of Darius ..Dan 11:1 which is in
the same format as Dan 9.. Agin you relay on folk who do not understand
themselves and as a consequence do not know that they are talking
about......all the vision s arabout setting upt the kingdom and Christ is
KIng..what Danile saw was the KIng
the 10th chapter is a prologue, a preparation for information to follow in
chapter 11, where the actual promised content is located. So, you're quite
right when you say that "ch 10 ... does not cover everything in the latter
days." In fact, it covers NOTHING of the latter days
Most ceratinly does and in fact Jesus the man under discussion relates this
same thing in his Revelation to John in Revelation 1:14. His head and his hairs
were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his
voice as the sound of many waters. 16. And he had in his right hand seven
stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance
was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17. And when I saw him, I fell at his
feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I
am the first and the last: 18. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold,
I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Jesus did not get those feet and Voice until He came, He died and He
revived!...Revelation ch 1 is the Triumphant Christ which is what Daniel saw
and could understand for he had been given all the other visions all previously
....Which he would have need in order to fully understand.....Just like we can
today, but only if you put them in order!.................. If you do not put
them in order well...your assertions are baseless and misguided. I once again
call for you to concede...
-- it's completely preparatory (it describes Daniel's weakness in the angel's
presence, the angel's strengthening of him, the angel's brief asides of recent
history explaining why he's arrived at this point to impart new information and
truth to Daniel concerning what is to come), without EVER revealing a promised
future thing in this chapter. Everything in chapter 10 is preparatory, with
zero substantive content that will fulfill the promise of 10:14. This has been
my point for weeks: that the entire discourse is continuous, as all my recent
citations repeatedly made explicit and rigorous. To no avail. You label hard
grammatical proof as "feelings," rigid logical sequences as "nonsense" and the
clear layout of the discourse provided by me as "illogical." And you seem
pretty careless about whether or not you've insulted an angel, because your
preconceived but erroneous notions are more important to worry about.
You have no "grammatical proof"..and your commets are based on others who are
wrong themselves and feelings. No,what you realy have is a complete lack of
understanding and assertions about insults to angels and such,and things you
know nothing about. Your assertions do not constitute "Proof" of anything
except your total and at this point "WILFULLY" & stubborn ignorance and
ignoring of the relevant issues under consideration.... You are a great man and
you have plenty of Knoledge but the knowlege you have is not according to the
truth....
So you see the verse that should realy casue you to pause is Dan 12:10 "the
wise will understand"..........."none of the wicked shall understand". I have
proven my points at every stop but like Jesus? or the Apostles day no matter
what you show some they will refuse to understand and would rather believe in
things that cant be demonstrated in spite of ANY "proof".... A vison is given
in ch 10 after the visons recived in chpters 2,7 8,11&12 which are discusing
the same things and revelation was given to the 7 churches so they too could
understand.. just like you can but you refuse demonstratable understanding.
"Martin G. Selbrede" <mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 29, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Allen Daves wrote:
What info did he promise danile for the third year or in Ch 10 that you are
so concered with? The latter days are discussed in ch 10 and it does not cover
everything in the latter days .
This, in my mind, is emblematic of the entire problem in this dialogue. Based
on the above statement, I'd conclude that you've never read the 10th chapter of
Daniel. The 10th chapter NEVER discusses anything in the future, but the angel
promises to do so (v. 14) because this is the precise, self-confessed reason
for which he has appeared to Daniel. As all the commentators have correctly
noted, the 10th chapter is a prologue, a preparation for information to follow
in chapter 11, where the actual promised content is located. So, you're quite
right when you say that "ch 10 ... does not cover everything in the latter
days." In fact, it covers NOTHING of the latter days -- it's completely
preparatory (it describes Daniel's weakness in the angel's presence, the
angel's strengthening of him, the angel's brief asides of recent history
explaining why he's arrived at this point to impart new information and truth
to Daniel concerning what is to come), without EVER revealing a
promised future thing in this chapter. Everything in chapter 10 is
preparatory, with zero substantive content that will fulfill the promise of
10:14. This has been my point for weeks: that the entire discourse is
continuous, as all my recent citations repeatedly made explicit and rigorous.
To no avail. You label hard grammatical proof as "feelings," rigid logical
sequences as "nonsense" and the clear layout of the discourse provided by me as
"illogical." And you seem pretty careless about whether or not you've insulted
an angel, because your preconceived but erroneous notions are more important to
worry about.
If you read all the citations I laboriously provided, some much-needed
enlightenment might creep in. Show yourself teachable.
Alarmingly, though, we're one step closer to Jude's description of "rejecting
authority, and insulting the glorious ones." And for what?
Martin
Martin G. Selbrede
Chief Scientist
Uni-Pixel Displays, Inc.
8708 Technology Forest Place, Suite 100
The Woodlands, TX 77381
281-825-4500 main line (281) 825-4507 direct line (281) 825-4599 fax
(512) 422-4919 cell
mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx / martin.selbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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