Phil, Continue.... Ch 2&7 outline what would take place in the latter days 2:28 but in terms of outlining numbers of kings .. these chapters outline the total time frame for the latter days via the number of kings Ch 8,11&12 outlines "at that time" ....."a time of trouble such as never was" at the time of the end it too is a time frame that begins with a king from the third empire and ends up with the time of trouble such as never was,( referring to the destruction of Jerusalem we know this from Jesus remarks in the NT).. ...These chapters mark the start and end points roughly ch 9 outlines events leading upto, during and the end point Destruction of Jerusalem ( time os trouble such as never was) it does that by laying out time frames from certain benchmarks that all point to "That time" at which "a time of trouble" or "at the time of the end" or the setting up of the kingdom in the days of these kings..... all those are common to each other...70 weeks in Ch 9 do it by outlining a Time (70 weeks) Times ( 62 & 7 weeks) and half a time ( midst of one week ,3.5 of 7 years) which ends with the destruction of Jerusalem or the time of trouble such as never was which is also discussed in the Gospels as well as Revelation..in terms of trampling the city by the gentiles for 42 months (3.5 Years) the end of this time frame (to set up the kingdom via birth of Christ, death of Christ and Destruction of Jerusalem)(the time frame itself is measured via those kings mentioned in Ch 2 & 7) is marked by and ends after a time times and half a time... .........but that time frame itself will and is to be identified and benchmarked by in the days of those kings in which the kingdom would be setup..the consummation and confirmation of the covenant was the destruction of the city and temple. The same things mentioned in Danile Jesus and Revelation... Hope this helps... Allen Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Good Comment Phil, look at the coreltions the text makes to itself I use color to point them out since i cant do it personly... they are all discusing the same things with diferent or more or less detail but the same never the less Matthe 24:15. When ye therefore shall see 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, ???, stand in the holy place??.. 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (There can only be one of those by definition) 28?for your redemption draweth nigh. Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, ??????. 6. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; ( Revelation 12:6, 14 & 11:3) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished Daniel Here is referring to the time of troubles such as never was and Jesus Refers to it as well as the Abomination of desolation or Jerusalem destroyed. Jesus also makes comment on the rocks falling and covering us as well as the paps which give suck ..both of these themes are specifically referenced by Jesus latter in the book of revelation since it was given to John by Jesus?lets keep looking (Luke 23:27. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem , weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. Luke 21:20. 20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, ??..that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;. ??.. 22. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!..... Revelation 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?) ???.for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Revelation 11: 2. ?.for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months 3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. At this point we also see how that in those same days of trouble Jerusalem I trodden down, day of wrath and and given unto the gentiles for 42 months or 1260 days or ~3.5 years Revelation 12:6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. From these passages we can see the correlations to destruction of Jerusalem and wrath and folk crying for rocks to fall on them and paps which don?t give suck and time of trouble such as never was ect?.these are all common to each other and related to each other and specifically related to the destruction of Jerusalem and a time of trouble such as never was, now Jesus describes that time of trouble in revelation in the events surrounding the 1260 days woman in wilderness or the Prophecy of the three witnesses for 1260 days during the 42 months of Jerusalem trampled by the gentiles which is the same thing ?.the end here in revelation for this sequence of events is for a TIME TIMES AND HALF A TIME?the same end of it found in Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, Luke 21:20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Continued from Daniel; 12:??????. 6. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; ?.. Daniel 12 is given In same year as ch 9 but in any case ?The time of trouble? is the same the destruction of Jerusalem is the same and end of it is the same as found in Daniel, Matthew, Luke, Revelation and ..Daniel 9 specifically discussed the destruction of Jerusalem Daniel 9:26?and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. All these various verses point to a time of troubles such as never was, and the end of it as the destruction of Jerusalem which is tread for 42 months or 1260 days or until times time and a half which is the whole point of the 42 months or 3.5 years the midst of the week (7 Years) causing sacrifice and oblation to cease as a result of the war that will continue or persist, where Jerusalem trampled for 42 months ..the end the wonders and the time times of time and a half?..All related by same events and descriptions ..which as I have pointed out why 70 weeks vision discussing this is broken into time(70) times(62&7) and a half( midst of one week or middle of 7 years) Which is ?THE END? of all the wonders given in the visions. philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: ?Again my arguments are & have been based specifically on the text and yours on how you feel about the text??.? Allen I dunno Allen I get a lot of what you interpret of the word in this. Is that what you feel about it? I demonstrated the relationship of Times, times and a half has to 70 weeks and troublesome times in the 70 weeks vision is related to Herrod as well as Nehemiah and how it applies. Note this covered what the abomination of desolation is Matthew mark and luke run parallel they are nod siscusing different events surounding Arn't you presuming here? Scripture does not say there is any parallel connection.. Even though you may feel that it is true.. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Daves To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 1:11 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: 666 Martin, I have soundly refuted all your arguments and demonstrated the only arguments that can logicaly be demonstrated based on what scripture states on those points verbatim. You, as of have yet have not offered a single argument based on scripter to either logically refute mine or logically prove your own. Telling us how you feel about Gabriel or any other passage in scripture does not constitute a logical proof for any argument based on scripture. Not agreeing with a position is not the same as demonstrating it in error or demonstrating that some other potion is correct..? All you are attempting is to argue your points based on how you fee about the text not anything actually found in it. ?No? is not a argument that is just how you feel ! ?Again my arguments are & have been based specifically on the text and yours on how you feel about the text??.? 1. Cardinal (666years) v Ordinal (666th Year) numbers of years..... and those relationships to 596BC-70AD + 11 months. Jan of AD 70 is the 666th year while Technically 666 years have not passed from 596 until Dec 31 AD 70 (even though most folk would when asked say that by Sept 3 AD 70 666 years have passed due to rounding.). In any case the net effect of 666th year and 666 years is the same and since we don?t know Nebs first month the margin or error + 11 months is more then sufficient to cover either a full 666 years from 23Sept 597BC or 666th year from 596BC- Sept, 23 70AD ..there is therefore no argument to the contrary found in the years layout particularly since 490 BC of 20th year of Artaxerxes prevents any other scheme see point 3. an that is mostly independent of the 666 years. This can't even be logialy refuted with any bases in fact ..what are you objecting too.? By the way, you've not (to my recollection, which may be fault -- this is a pretty long thread, after all) identified precisely WHAT you think the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, which was to signal believers to flee Jerusalem on the rooftops of the city buildings, actually is, and what approximate year it appeared. It would help to know your thoughts on this, because we're not (again, to my recollection) mind-readers on this forum. No mind readers needed only scripture readers.......how can you so miss the obvious 2. I demonstrated the relationship of Times, times and a half has to 70 weeks and troublesome times in the 70 weeks vision is related to Herrod as well as Nehemiah and how it applies. Note this covered what the abomination of desolation is Matthew mark and luke run parallel they are nod siscusing different events surounding Matthe 24:15. When ye therefore shall see 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, ???, stand in the holy place??.. 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (There can only be one of those by definition) 28?for your redemption draweth nigh. Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, (Daniel 12:1 every one that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. ??????. 6. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; ( Revelation 12:6, 14 & 11:3) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. ( 42 months = 1260 days relation to times time and half a time) Mark 13:14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,. standing where it ought not, ?spoken of by Daniel the prophet then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,??.. Luke 21:20. 20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, ??..that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; . ??.. 22. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!..... (Luke 23:27. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem , weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. Revelation 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?) ???.for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Revelation 11: 2. ?.for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months).????? 27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. ????? 31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled From the three accounts the abomination of desolation is?? 1.Spoken of by Daniel, and in Ch 9 is the only discussion of the destruction of Jerusalem?Ch 8,11 & 12 are specifically about ?setting it? up and ?placing it? by Herrod?s & Augustus 2. Is about the desolation of Jerusalem 3. Related in terms of A. standing where it out not B. Armies surrounding Jerusalem which is what Daniel discuses by the prince & about the temple No mind reading nessesary. the text plainly states "when you see" ...& "flee" ..???? About March-April AD 70 is when The Roman armies began to surrounded Jerusalem and broke through after about a month There is only one possible chronology based on the text not how anyone feels about the text?.How you feel about the Angel Gabrial is not a logicl argument based in scripture 3. I most certainly did demonstrate the only correct Persian kings Chronology that can be demonstrated and how to know that it is accurate and how those dates relates to the 490 years in the 70 weeks & how that relates to 666 years. Daruis the mead ?of the seed of the Medes? Ruled 1 year this is not the same Daruis as Darius the Persian, for many obvious reasons ..(namely this one is after Belshazzar who is before Cyrus where the latter one is clearly demonstrated as being after Cyrus)....Note: Daniel 6:28. So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian. note: at this point Daniel is ~94 years old by Cyrus?s 3rd year. Daniel 5:30. In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31. And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old. Cyrus ?king of Persia? Ruled 3 years Ahasuerus Ruled 12 years this is not the father of ?Darius the mead? specifically because he is after Cyrus??.. Ezra 4:5. And hired counsellers against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia. 6. And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem. 7. And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue. 8. Rehum the chancellor and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to Artaxerxes the king in this sort:??????? 23. Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power. 24. Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Artaxerxes king of Persia Ruled 32 years...... in his 20th year Nehemiah, 490 BC Darius the Persian 6 years recorded... not the same as Daruis the mead for many obvious reasons ..namely this one is after Cyrus... Ezra 6: 1. Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. 2. And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written: 3. In the first year of Cyrus .........& Foundations of temple laid in his 2nd year those who saw the first saw the last?. Ezra 3:12. But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy: Haggai 1:1. In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet unto???..8. Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the Lord Haggai 2:1. In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month, came the word of the Lord by the prophet Haggai, saying,????. 10. In the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet, saying, 11. Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,???? 15. And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the Lord:??.. 18. Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the Lord's temple was laid, consider it. What do you not understand? ..There is no other construct you can build and be consistent with scripture? Scriptures outline of these kings utterly destroys any argument against my points in # 4next? How you feel about the text it is not the same as what the text states. ? 4. I demonstrated the dates for these visions named in these chapters in Daniel Ch9 vision took place in 1st year of Daruis the mead before Cyrus?...regardless of when it was recorded What part of Dan 9:1 do you not understand????? Daniel 9: 1. In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; 2. In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. seed of the meads is not Darius the Persian see point #3..??? Ch 10 vision took place in 3rd year of Cyrus...regardless of when it was recorded Daniel 10 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision. Ch 11 vision took place in 1st year of Daruis the mead?...regardless of when it was written down. What part of Dan 11: 1 do you not understand ???? Daniel 11: 1. Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. 2. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. seed of the meads is not Darius the Persian see point #3..??? My last comments /post on Daniel Ch 9, 10,11,12 chrono: 1. Daniel is not all given in Chronological order so there can be no argument based solely on textual placement. See ch 6 2.The construct is the same as ch 9 for when the event is taking place 3. If that angle spoke to him in ch 10 in the 3rd year of Cyrus, there is nothing that would have prevented that him from doing so earlier.............. OR it is now in the third year of Cyrus that Daniel is writing about what he had been given by that same angle few years earlier....( A consolidated account that includes Daniels present in the third year of Cyrus as well asearlier on?.[ the events that took place back in Darius 1st year....]. 4 .Scripture names all those kings in ch 11:2 and there are only the five kings listed there total. In short There is no 4 kings after Cyrus.. And the chronological problems I addressed with the foundations of the temple earlier would still rip any other construct to pieces....... . in short the argument or any based on it is inconsistent with the text itself on multiple grounds.. Summary: Again you are attempting to force a meaning that is not imperative [nor consentient] nor can be demonstrated as such against a position that can be demonstrated and is consistent with the text. Ch 12same as 11 Danile ch 11 can?t possibly be later then Cyrus ..what in the world are you talking about. ?.!? 5. Symbology and the specificity of 666 ( specifically to the only man reckoned as a beast found anywhere in scripture) Are there any other outstanding issues that need to be addressed to understand 666? No one seemed to challenge me on ch 8,11 & 12 discussing Herrod the great or setting up or placing the Abomination of desolation..? Demonstrate, quite or concede?you states " I know what MY answer is to the question," I don't question this. However, to be quite frank, at this piont, the only thing you have demonstrated thus far is your willingness to believe what you want to believe in spite of the text, regardless of what scripture states based more on how you feel .....You seem to only be intered in what you or others "thought" appearently found in some comentaries..by the way you would proably get more use out of them if as you said you would burn them...... ?You are not offering nor have you offered up arguments based on the text you are only telling us how you feel about what is found in the text??even a non bible student can see that ?? why is it so hard for you to see?. Invoking a circular fallacy about how others make the same error in reading you do therefore you must be right is ridiculous ..Otherwise, demonstrate what scripture states that would actually support your arguments?no is not a argument how you feel about gabriel has no bering on what Gabrial or Danile or anyonese stated? No is not a argument. How you feel about Gabriel has no bearing on what Gabriel or Danielle or anyone else actually declared or what the texts states..? Martin Selbrede <mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Allen, This is my assessment of your 5 points. 1. No 2. No 3. No 4. No (especially NO regarding your still-persistent wrong timing of chapter 11) 4. No (I think you meant 5 but wrote 4 twice) You have been challenged on chapter 11 & 12 as regards to their chronology, so it makes no sense to go any further on that issue until the chronology is settled (it evidently isn't, based on this new post). So, if it seems no one has challenged you, it's because there's unfinished business that must be dealt with first before we get to the substance of the various kings in Daniel 11 and their identity. By the way, you've not (to my recollection, which may be fault -- this is a pretty long thread, after all) identified precisely WHAT you think the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, which was to signal believers to flee Jerusalem on the rooftops of the city buildings, actually is, and what approximate year it appeared. It would help to know your thoughts on this, because we're not (again, to my recollection) mind-readers on this forum. Some precision in identifying it, so that nobody could mistake what you think Daniel and Jesus referred to, would be very helpful. A big list of scriptures with alleged connections in bold underline comes off as hand-waving, whether you intend that or not. Just be plain-spoken about it. Surely something so serious that people's lives were at stake, and that they didn't even have time to go back into their houses but had to evacuate instantly, should be a fairly clear simple sign not requiring any convoluted understanding of various scriptures (which may or may not even have been committed to writing at the time) to figure out how to save your family's life. I know what MY answer is to the question, and how the 7000 Christians who heeded the sign fled to Pella and survived the siege of Titus as a consequence, as Christ promised they would. Martin --------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 27/05/2007 3:05 PM