[geocentrism] Re: 666

Martin, 
  I have soundly refuted all your arguments and demonstrated the only arguments 
that can logicaly be demonstrated based on what scripture states on those 
points verbatim. You, as of have yet have not  offered a single argument based 
on scripter to either logically refute mine or logically prove your own. 
Telling us how you feel about Gabriel or any other passage in scripture does 
not constitute a logical proof for any argument based on scripture. Not 
agreeing with a position is not the same as demonstrating it in error or 
demonstrating that some other potion is correct..? All you are attempting is to 
argue your points based on how you fee about the text not anything actually 
found in it. ?No? is not a argument that is just how you feel !
  ?Again my arguments are & have been based specifically on the text and yours 
on how you feel about the text??.?   
   
   
  1. Cardinal (666years) v Ordinal (666th Year) numbers of years..... and those 
relationships to 596BC-70AD  + 11 months. Jan of AD 70 is the 666th year while 
Technically 666 years have not passed from 596 until Dec 31 AD 70 (even though 
most folk would when asked say that by  Sept 3 AD 70 666 years have passed due 
to rounding.). In any case the net effect of 666th year and 666 years is the 
same and since we don?t know Nebs first month the margin or error + 11 months 
is more then sufficient to cover either a full 666 years from 23Sept 597BC or 
666th year from 596BC- Sept, 23 70AD ..there is therefore no argument to the 
contrary found in the years layout particularly since 490 BC of 20th year of 
Artaxerxes prevents any other scheme see point 3. an that is mostly independent 
of the 666 years.  This can't even  be logialy refuted with any bases in fact 
..what are you objecting too.?
   
     
   
   
  By the way, you've not (to my recollection, which may be fault -- 
this is a pretty long thread, after all) identified precisely WHAT 
you think the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the 
prophet, which was to signal believers to flee Jerusalem on the 
rooftops of the city buildings, actually is, and what approximate 
year it appeared. It would help to know your thoughts on this, 
because we're not (again, to my recollection) mind-readers on this 
forum.
  No mind readers needed only scripture readers.......how can you so miss the 
obvious

   
  2. I demonstrated the relationship of Times, times and a half has to 70 weeks 
and troublesome times in the 70 weeks vision is  related to Herrod as well as 
Nehemiah and how it applies.  Note this covered what the abomination of 
desolation  is Matthew mark and luke run parallel they are nod siscusing 
different events surounding 
   
  Matthe 24:15.  When ye therefore shall see 
  15.  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, ???, stand in 
the holy place??.. 16.  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the 
mountains:
  21.  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning 
of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.    (There can only be one of 
those by definition) 28?for your redemption draweth nigh.
  Daniel 12:1.  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which 
standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, 
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that 
time thy people shall be delivered,   (Daniel 12:1 every one that shall be 
found written in the book. 2.  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the 
earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting 
contempt. ??????. 6.  And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon 
the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7.  
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, 
when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him 
that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; ( 
Revelation 12:6, 14 & 11:3) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the 
power of the holy people, all these things shall be
 finished. ( 42 months = 1260 days relation to times time and half a time)
  Mark 13:14.  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,. standing 
where it ought not, ?spoken of by Daniel the prophet then let them that be in 
Judaea flee to the mountains:spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it 
ought not,??..
   Luke 21:20.  
  20.  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, ??..that the 
desolation thereof is nigh. 21.  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the 
mountains;
  . ??.. 22.  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are 
written may be fulfilled. 23.  But woe unto them that are with child, and to 
them that give suck, in those days!.....
  (Luke 23:27.  And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, 
which also bewailed and lamented him. 28.  But Jesus turning unto them said, 
Daughters of Jerusalem , weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your 
children. 29.  For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 
Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never 
gave suck. 30.  Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and 
to the hills, Cover us.
   Revelation 6:16.  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide 
us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the 
Lamb: 17.  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to 
stand?)
   ???.for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this 
people. 24.  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led 
away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the 
Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.  (Revelation 11: 2. 
?.for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under 
foot forty and two months).????? 27.  And then shall they see the Son of man 
coming in a cloud with power and great glory. ????? 31.  So likewise ye, when 
ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at 
hand. 32.  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all 
be fulfilled
   
   
  From the three accounts the abomination of desolation is?? 
  1.Spoken of by Daniel, and in Ch 9 is the only discussion of the destruction 
of Jerusalem?Ch 8,11 & 12 are specifically about ?setting it? up and ?placing 
it? by Herrod?s  & Augustus
  2. Is about the desolation of Jerusalem
  3. Related in terms of A. standing where it out not B. Armies surrounding 
Jerusalem which is what Daniel discuses by the prince & about the temple 
   
  No mind reading nessesary. the text plainly states "when you see" ...& "flee" 
..????
  About March-April AD 70  is when The Roman armies began to surrounded 
Jerusalem and broke through after about a month 
   
   
   
  There is only one possible chronology based on the text not how anyone feels 
about the text?.How you feel about the Angel Gabrial is not a logicl argument 
based in scripture
  3. I most certainly did demonstrate the only correct Persian kings Chronology 
that can be demonstrated and how to know that it is accurate and how those 
dates relates to the 490 years in the 70 weeks  & how that relates to 666 years.
   
  Daruis the mead ?of the seed of the Medes? Ruled 1 year  this is not the same 
Daruis as Darius the Persian, for many obvious reasons ..(namely this one is 
after Belshazzar who is before Cyrus where the latter one is clearly 
demonstrated as being after Cyrus)....Note: Daniel 6:28.  So this Daniel 
prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian. note: 
at this point Daniel is  ~94 years old by Cyrus?s 3rd year.  Daniel 5:30.  In 
that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
 31.  And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two 
years old.
   
  Cyrus ?king of Persia? Ruled 3 years 
   
  Ahasuerus  Ruled 12 years  this is not the father of ?Darius the mead? 
specifically because he is after Cyrus??.. Ezra 4:5.  And hired counsellers 
against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, 
even until the reign of Darius king of Persia. 6.  And in the reign of 
Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation 
against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem. 7.  And in the days of 
Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, 
unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in 
the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue. 8.  Rehum the 
chancellor and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to 
Artaxerxes the king in this sort:??????? 23.  Now when the copy of king 
Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their 
companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to 
cease by force
 and power. 24.  Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at 
Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of 
Persia.
   
  Artaxerxes king of Persia Ruled 32 years......  in his 20th year Nehemiah, 
490 BC 
   
  Darius the Persian  6 years recorded... not the same as Daruis the mead for 
many obvious reasons ..namely this one is after Cyrus...
  Ezra 6: 1.  Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the 
house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. 2.  And there 
was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a 
roll, and therein was a record thus written: 3.  In the first year of Cyrus
   .........& Foundations of temple laid in his 2nd year  those who saw the 
first saw the last?. 
  Ezra 3:12.  But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who 
were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this 
house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted 
aloud for joy:
  Haggai 1:1. In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the 
first day of the month, came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet 
unto???..8. Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I 
will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the Lord
  Haggai 2:1. In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month, 
came the word of the Lord by the prophet Haggai, saying,????. 10. In the four 
and twentieth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, came the 
word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet, saying, 11. Thus saith the Lord of 
hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,???? 15. And now, I pray 
you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a 
stone in the temple of the Lord:??.. 18. Consider now from this day and upward, 
from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the 
foundation of the Lord's temple was laid, consider it.
   
  What do you not understand? ..There is no other construct you can build and 
be consistent with scripture? Scriptures outline of these kings utterly 
destroys any argument against my points in # 4next? How you feel about the text 
it is not the same as what the text states. ?
  4. I demonstrated the dates for these visions named in these chapters in 
Daniel
  Ch9 vision took place in 1st year of Daruis the mead before 
Cyrus?...regardless of when it was recorded What part of Dan 9:1 do you not 
understand????? Daniel 9: 1.  In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, 
of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; 
2.  In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of 
the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he 
would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. seed of the 
meads is not Darius the Persian see point #3..???
  Ch 10 vision took place in 3rd year of Cyrus...regardless of when it was 
recorded Daniel 10
   
   1.  In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto 
Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the 
time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of 
the vision.
   
  Ch 11 vision took place in 1st year of Daruis the mead?...regardless of when 
it was written down. What part of Dan 11: 1 do you not understand ???? Daniel 
11: 1.  Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm 
and to strengthen him. 2.  And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there 
shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer 
than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all 
against the realm of Grecia. seed of the meads is not Darius the Persian see 
point #3..???
   
  My last comments /post on Daniel Ch 9, 10,11,12 chrono:
  1. Daniel is not all given in Chronological order so there can be no argument 
based solely on textual placement. See ch 6
  2.The construct is the same as ch 9 for when the event is taking place
  3. If that angle spoke to him in ch 10 in the 3rd year of Cyrus, there is 
nothing that would have prevented that him from doing so earlier.............. 
OR it is now in the third year of Cyrus that Daniel is writing about what he 
had been given by that same angle few years earlier....( A consolidated account 
that includes Daniels present in the third year of Cyrus as well asearlier 
on?.[ the events that took place back in Darius 1st year....]. 
  4 .Scripture names all those kings in ch 11:2 and there are only the five 
kings listed there total. In short There is no 4 kings after Cyrus.. And the 
chronological problems I addressed with the foundations of the temple earlier 
would still rip any other construct to pieces....... . in short the argument or 
any based on it is inconsistent with the text itself on multiple grounds.. 
  Summary: Again you are attempting to force a meaning that is not imperative 
[nor consentient] nor can be demonstrated as such against a position that can 
be demonstrated and is consistent with the text. 
   Ch 12same as 11
   
  Danile ch 11 can?t possibly be later then Cyrus ..what in the world are you 
talking about. ?.!?
   
   
  5. Symbology and the specificity of 666 ( specifically to the only man 
reckoned as a beast found anywhere in scripture)
   
   
  Are there any other outstanding issues that need to be addressed to 
understand 666? No one seemed to challenge me on ch 8,11 & 12 discussing Herrod 
the great or setting up or placing the Abomination of desolation..?
   
   
  Demonstrate, quite or concede?you states " I know what MY answer is to the 
question," I don't question this. However, to be quite frank, at this piont, 
the only thing you have demonstrated thus far is your willingness to believe 
what you want to believe in spite of the text, regardless of what scripture 
states based more on how you feel .....You seem to only be intered in what you 
or others "thought" appearently found in some comentaries..by the way you would 
proably get more use out of them if as you said you would burn them...... ?You 
are not offering nor have you offered up arguments based on the text you are 
only telling us how you feel about what is found in the text??even a non bible 
student can see that ?? why is it so hard for you to see?. Invoking a circular 
fallacy about how others make the same error in reading you do therefore you 
must be right is ridiculous  ..Otherwise, demonstrate what scripture states 
that would actually support your arguments?no is not a
 argument how you feel about gabriel has no bering on what Gabrial or Danile or 
anyonese stated?  No is not a argument. How you feel about Gabriel has no 
bearing on what Gabriel or Danielle or anyone else actually declared or what 
the texts states..?

   
  

Martin Selbrede <mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
  Allen,

This is my assessment of your 5 points.

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No (especially NO regarding your still-persistent wrong timing of 
chapter 11)
4. No (I think you meant 5 but wrote 4 twice)

You have been challenged on chapter 11 & 12 as regards to their 
chronology, so it makes no sense to go any further on that issue 
until the chronology is settled (it evidently isn't, based on this 
new post). So, if it seems no one has challenged you, it's because 
there's unfinished business that must be dealt with first before we 
get to the substance of the various kings in Daniel 11 and their 
identity.

By the way, you've not (to my recollection, which may be fault -- 
this is a pretty long thread, after all) identified precisely WHAT 
you think the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the 
prophet, which was to signal believers to flee Jerusalem on the 
rooftops of the city buildings, actually is, and what approximate 
year it appeared. It would help to know your thoughts on this, 
because we're not (again, to my recollection) mind-readers on this 
forum. Some precision in identifying it, so that nobody could 
mistake what you think Daniel and Jesus referred to, would be very 
helpful. A big list of scriptures with alleged connections in bold 
underline comes off as hand-waving, whether you intend that or not. 
Just be plain-spoken about it. Surely something so serious that 
people's lives were at stake, and that they didn't even have time to 
go back into their houses but had to evacuate instantly, should be a 
fairly clear simple sign not requiring any convoluted understanding 
of various scriptures (which may or may not even have been committed 
to writing at the time) to figure out how to save your family's life.

I know what MY answer is to the question, and how the 7000 Christians 
who heeded the sign fled to Pella and survived the siege of Titus as 
a consequence, as Christ promised they would.

Martin

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