[geocentrism] Re: 2 Axes of rotation - drawing brand new for you

One last thing, for the evening.....They say a picture speaks a thousand 
words......  Hopefully you will all be able to see this....brand new attached 
diagram. it illustrates the fundamental error in your argument...........


Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:     Ja,

  Your drawing I agree with but your drawing does not show everything nor does 
it to be correct. It only shows the nightly motion over a night or over a year, 
so there is no disagreement there. The annual motion will replicate a nightly 
motion too ...That too is not nor was it ever in question. The reason it 
replicates the nightly over the course of a year is that the observer 
parallaxes the celestial axis...The observer parallaxes the ecliptic as well 
you cant just say that since it does one then the other is unseen....That is 
what you do not show. It is the orbital motion that produced that nightly view 
due to parallax. Your are in essence showing the spin ( nightly motion) on a 
orbital sander and saying see spin therefore no orbit?....... There is a 
nightly motion in that annual PLUS a orbital rotational motion. not a nightly 
therefore nothing else..that is not possible nor does it make mechanical or 
experimental sense.
   
  The only thing Jack's diagram shows is the vertical distance along the 
ecliptic axis changes over the course of a year that is what Nevile's/Jack's 
drawing is showing you. The only other thing is the camera angel to that 
axis..That is irrelevant. It does not matter because you don?t have to look at 
the axis to see the rotational effect...What you are arguing is in effect a 
nightly motion replicated annually with no other motion...That is wrong and 
based on the two fallacies I listed, because without assuming these fallacies 
the argument does not hold together.
   
  1. Since you are not looking at the annual axis of rotation the it is 
obscured by the annual reproduction of the nightly trails thus you cannot see 
the other axis.
  2. Since the nightly would show up in the annual therefore the two are 
equivalent...that is like saying the spin and orbit of a orbital sander are one 
in the same since they take place in the same or a different plane!?
   
  The fact that the nightly motion is and can be reproduced in that annual has 
nothing to do with the problem except that for you since you see the nightly in 
the annual you somehow thus conclude that is all there is to see......Again it 
makes no mechanical or experimental  sense to assume that 
   
  Your conclusions are based on those false assumptions. These are the basic 
and relevant facts that prove and will prove to anybody else that bothers to do 
some real experimentation and not just thought experiments that only show you 
what HC has programmed you to think..?
  1. rotational condition exits every 24 hours period
  2. you do not have to look at or be at the same angle of a rotation in order 
to view it period
  3. star trails any annual or nightly trails that are reproduced via the 
annual motion are determined solely by the distance to the star from the axis 
of rotation in question.
  4. Two different axis have two different arc distances to each star
   
  Regardless of your view of the & or all axis of rotation they cannot hide in 
one another .
   
  Gota get offline for today.......I?m turning blue in the face I think?..:-)
  
j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    Allen,
   
  It would seem there is allot I don't understand. I don't understand how you 
can agree with my drawing "earth"  where the cameras in position 2 are the same 
whether it's 12 hours later or 6 months later and still hold your view. And if 
you don't agree with the drawing, I don't understand why?
   
  Did you agree or disagree with my statement from the previous email 
(highlighted) ? I'm trying to make sure our understanding of the reasons and 
mechanics are identical for the nightly before extending the reasoning to the 
annual.
   
  JA

Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    Ja,
   
  I agree with your drawings... Again no one is debating the fact that the 
annual motion will record the nightly motion....that is a FACT!...however it is 
also a fact that a secondary motion would and must be present that is not a 
assumption that is a physical fact, just as in the case of a orbital 
sander........Your conclusion which states just the opposite is an assumption 
by definition.....What do you not understand?
   
  more in blue....
  

j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    In red below
   
  Allen, you are assuming what I'm assuming and not even looking at my diagrams 
or logic because you are so convinced of your own. Allow me some lee-way here 
and just respond as simply as possible to the following. 
   
  Tell me if the following statement is correct or not: 
   
  In HC, when recording a nightly circle, it is recorded because the camera has 
rotated about the nightly axis and has maintained the same angle to that axis, 
such that if you set up the camera at angle X from the axis to start with, in 
12 hours it will be negative X from that axis because it is fixed to the ground 
and the ground cirlces around the axis.
   
  If you do not agree with a portion of the statement then let me know what 
that is. I will follow up from your responce.
  

Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
     
  Ja,
   
  You are not free of assumptions! .... (who isn't ;-)  )That is what i keep 
trying to point out to you.. (you keep pointing out the aurguement of the 
proof) No im pointin out a physical factthat you keep asserting as  your 
conclusion that is infact true.   Look, go to the hardware store and buy a 
circular sander (nightly rotation) and a orbital sander ( nightly + a orbit) 
that is the difference!...Just because the nightly is visible in what we 
observe annually does not negate the annual orbital (for the same reasons that 
the nightly is there in the first place). (Namely, parallax of the axis of 
rotation)...In a orbital sander the nightlycircles are going to be there and we 
are looking at that axis but also in it is a "annual" motion as well. There is 
a secondary motion that is there and must be there  because there is a second 
axis of rotation...You are assuming that since you are looking at the same sky 
and you see the same nightly circles then you cannot see the other.
 (I am not basing anything I do on what is seen in the sky. I am modeling HC 
and saying what will this or that camera configuration record, given HC 
motions) SO am i we are not disagreeing about the mechaincs or even your 
drawing except that you are only drawing a concluion based on one not two axis 
of rotation. This is based on two false premises
   
  1.That since you see the one you would not see the other (I am not starting 
with this as an assumption, it is a conclusion given certain parameters)..NO it 
is an assumed conclusion! that is false and falseafiable....... .a orbital 
sander proves that wrong! (nightly) circles will be in the (annual) orbital as 
well as the other axis of rotation. If you don?t assume this then you have no 
argument..?
  2. If you look in another direction then the axis in question you could not 
see the rotation on the other axis...the nightly disproves that ...if you do 
not assume this then you have no argument  I do not assume this either!!! I am 
not saying that any particular dirction of setting up a camera will change 
anything, I am saying that the nightly and annual motion do change the angle of 
recording with respect to the annual that you are trying to record and thus 
change what is recorded.
   
  without this your conclusion based on "certain parameters" makes no sense..?
  Your whole argument is based on those two basic and falsified assumptions. 
Otherwise you are going to have to show us something completely different......
  

 
    
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