[GeoStL] Re: You catch more flies with honey, than vinegar

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Confronting someone in a public forum is the WRONG approach.  Is comes
across as grandstanding and is the wrong context for a listserv group or
forum, just ask someone who gets yelled at by their boss in front of their
co-workers.  Did you really expect a response other than a defensive posture
or do you just like collecting quotes for your porfolio?

As at least ten people have stated, confront the individual and leave us out
of it.  I for one am tired of hearing your threats.  Taking further actions
such as calling a news conference or trying to derail an upcoming event, do
you expect to be forgiven and welcomed back after taking such actions?  I am
unclear about your motivation.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jim Bensman
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:03 PM
To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [GeoStL] Re: You catch more flies with honey, than vinegar


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Mike,

When problems with racism first happened in SLAGA, it was you who stepped in
and got the situation under control.  You gained my utmost respect for that.
You got the problems fixed and you agreed to personally take responsibility
to make sure the problems did not reoccur.  You set up an email address to
be sent to you for complaints to make sure they were taken care of.  I
greatly appreciated that.

That is why I was so utterly shocked when the person you dealt with the fist
time told such an utterly vile and hateful joke with you standing next to
him.  This joke was 100 times more vile and hateful than the first one that
caused the first blowup. I do not see how a joke could be more vile and
hateful than that one.

You wonder why I did not come to you for help with the situation.  You were
there when it happened and you had told me you were personally going to deal
with any future problem like that.  So I hope you can understand why I felt
a need to explore other options to get the situation addressed.  Like I said
in my previous message, it was Paul not me who told people about the web
site.  I was still trying to get the officers to address the situation in a
responsible manner.  Actually, I was thinking about talking to you about the
situation.

You say I do not want people to come to MOGA and events.  That simply is not
true.  I want events where people do not have to worry about hearing hate
speech.  If my goal was to get people to not come to events, I would have
done things like post messages on the MOGA page/forum, talked to IL
Department of Natural Resources, and I know lots of reporters.  While I
cannot say everything I have done was the best way to get this resolved, I
can say my goal is to make geocaching a hate-free sport and my guiding
principle on what tactic to take has been to be the least harmful to SLAGA
and geocaching.

"Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its
vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It
causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and
to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true."
Martin Luther King Jr.

The hate I heard expressed at three straight events, made me decide
something needed to be done to stop it.  That is what this is all about.
IMHO, hate unchecked in SLAGA is a threat to SLAGA.

Jim Bensman
"Nature Bats Last"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-
> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Griffin
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 5:50 PM
> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: You catch more flies with honey, than vinegar
>
> -
> Really don't blame you but that is exactly what he wants. We had a very
> nice
> lunch today. I guess there was about 25 people there.. The fact that we
> all
> had a good lunch and enjoyed each others company, proves that we all get
> along just fine. Jim started the website and dragged everyone into it.
> Sooner or later it was going to make it here on the list. I was never
> approached by Jim on these recent issues and I think that is what made me
> so
> mad. I wish he would have come to me as a friend. He took the opportunity
> to
> take a situation that happened 2 years ago and act as if I did nothing to
> correct it. He never came to me and asked for my help. I always considered
> Jim a friend. We cached together, I shared my campsite with him many
> times.
> I cooked him my favorite Mushroom melts.. I thought we had a friendship
> that
> was valued more than cheap trash talk because he didn't get his way.
>
> I blew up.. For that I apologize.. MOGA is a non political event. We will
> not discuss such things at the event. I, for one, am really hurt that Jim
> included me in this mess when all I have ever done was share my
> friendship..
>
> Mike
>
> Tired of Spam??
> Here's your solution..
> See: http://www.spamarrest.com/affl?4001050
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DRM" <drmdcm@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 3:55 PM
> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: You catch more flies with honey, than vinegar
>
>
> > -
> > I just want to say that I have never been to a SLAGA
> > or MOGO event before and was looking forward to the
> > event this March. I have paid my fee and sent in my
> > waver. I have been collecting JEEP TRAVEL BUGS to
> > bring for however the group distributes the travel
> > bugs at these events. However, after reading the
> > forums today I will not feel comfortable or feel safe
> > bring my son who is eight to this event. I don't know
> > many of the members or their backgrounds to know who
> > may go "Postal".
> > I have never met the two cachers who where offended or
> > know what the "offensive" joke was that was said so as
> > a member of SLAGA how am I liable and now labled
> > "Racist"?
> >
> > --- tklnhl & kyd <sydstyr@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >> -
> >> _______________________________________-
> >> > (But not to me, with the others in the group who
> >> are
> >> > anxious to have an intelligent discussion.)
> >> >
> >> > Paul Konopacki
> >> Hey now ...
> >>
> >> ++++
> >>
> >> Tried to read through the "Breaking News" update and
> >> got a bit lost when Bush started spying on  the
> >> Quakers.
> >>
> >> It's a shame, because, if presented to the group in
> >> a calm, logical way, I probably would have been on
> >> Jim's "side."
> >>
> >> As it stands, the message is lost in the
> >> presentation/attack.
> >>
> >> This website is the first most of us have even been
> >> made aware of a concern. My guess is that if
> >> presented to the group/list  in a calm,
> >> nonconfrontational way  (without naming names  as
> >> has been done in  the past), that another round of
> >> selfcensoring would have taken place.
> >>
> >> SLAGA is still, relatively speaking,  a group in its
> >> infancy. We (my family) and I were not there "in
> >> the beginning". But I'll go out on a  limb and say I
> >> doubt  that those who were there in the beginning
> >> imagined that  geocaching and SLAGA would grow as it
> >> has and would result in what  it is becoming.
> >>
> >> It is also because those people were willing to go
> >> waaaaaaaaay  out on an even larger limb that anyone
> >> in  this group has the opportunity to create
> >> websites, or send email to a list against the group.
> >> Without those people there would be no  group. There
> >> would be no  events in which to hear derogatory
> >> things;  no mail lists in which to discuss the
> >> merits of membership dues -- no website to track our
> >> stats (even if we try  to say it's NOT about the
> >> numbers).
> >>
> >> As SLAGA continues to grow there will be problems.
> >> One month (and  I'm ignoring things that happened
> >> TWO and HALF  years ago that everyone admits were
> >> settled) is  NOT enough time for a group of busy
> >> people to offer acceptable options.  Especially
> >> during this time of year when most have families,
> >> end of year commitments, illness  etc.
> >>
> >> As an individual, Paul made a  legitimate offer  for
> >> you to have your voice heard. No it wasn't exactly
> >> what you wanted but it would have been  a start.
> >> Perhaps it would have paved the way for other
> >> feedback opportunities. Perhaps others would have
> >> heard your concern and also privately contacted  the
> >> officers with similar concerns.
> >>
> >> Now, I will violate my own rule and make this
> >> personal.
> >>
> >> Jim, IMHO, you missed a great opportunity. Do you
> >> really not recognize  that you are a geocaching
> >> "presence" that many wonder about?  Your caches and
> >> placements are excellent; logs are interesting and
> >> when it comes to local natural resources your
> >> knowledge appears to be unlimited. Your caches have
> >> taken us places we would never have thought  to go.
> >> When we were able  to make it to the Christmas party
> >> YOU were the first person my 8 year old daughter
> >> wanted to  get a look at (Molly was the first but
> >> she has too many legs).   I had to  convince her
> >> though  that  based on my impression, you might not
> >> take it as a compliment if a laughing 8 year old
> >> girl walked up to you and said, "Dude..  we HATE you
> >> .. but I mean  that only in  the most loving way
> >> possible." Her best times, not only in gecocaching
> >> but in her little outdoor  life, have been getting
> >> lost in the woods with her daddy looking for YOUR
> >> caches. Just mention the name Myotis in  our house
> >> and there are at first groans a
> >>  nd lots of "oh nos" followed  by  "When do we
> >> go???".  You have been making a statement. A
> >> positive one whether you are aware  of it or not.
> >>
> >> (end what appears to be a  mini lovefest here)
> >>
> >> You have obviously worked hard to  protect the
> >> natural resources that you love. Why not do the same
> >> for the SLAGA organization? The clue is that the
> >> tactics that work for the US Government do not
> >> translate well into the interpersonal level. Just
> >> because it is individuals involved does not mean
> >> that things move faster. But it does mean that the
> >> individuals tend to take things personally and react
> >> on a personal  level.
> >>
> >> Now, do some of the founding members have different
> >> backgrounds, values and senses of humor than the
> >> nonfounding members?  Uh..  I  CAN say ..    YES to
> >> that. LOL.    This is NOT  the local  boyscouts,
> >> girlscouts, philanthropy or entrepreneur group.  Not
> >> the Army, the Knights of Columbus  or the local
> >> coven.  There are no pledges to be signed and
> >> memorized. No secret handshakes. (That *I* am aware
> >> of .. hmmmm  ... ) No higher,  altruistic goals
> >> except for CITO. Just people looking for a reason to
> >> head  into the  woods with latest technology. And
> >> they happened to be able to use the Internet to find
> >> SLAGA. And now this..
> >>
> >> As it is, the issue is no longer a concern about
> >> individual behavior in a group,  geo setting, but
> >> has become about one person and his past
> >> activities/current presentation and one or  two
> >> "official" SLAGA members reaction.
> >>
> >> And then somehow  the Quakers got involved and I'm
> >> not even sure they use a GPS.
> >>
> >> Also goes to show what must go on behind the scenes
> >> that we know nothing  about.
> >>
> >> It's my understanding that the officers get their
> >> pay in cookies. They'd better be really really big
> >> ones.
> >>
> >> Nancy
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________
> > Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
> > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> > dsl.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
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 For List Info or To make _ANY_ changes, including unsubscribing from this
 list, click -----> http://www.freelists.org/list/geocaching 
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