[GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest

-
Kurt, 

The Forest Service Wilderness Handbook defines "Permanent Improvement" as:
"A structural or nonstructural improvement that is to remain at a particular
location for more than one field season.  Permanent improvements include
such items as trails, toilet buildings, cabins, fences, tent frames, fire
grills, and instrumentation stations."

A cache is not an improvement.  It is also hidden.  You can have things that
you can see such as signs in a Wilderness.  

Jim Bensman
"Nature Bats Last" 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-
> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stoeppelman, Kurt
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:50 PM
> To: 'geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest
> 
> -
> I did not intend to imply that you did not know the difference. I wanted
> people in general who did not know much about these areas to know their
> special nature. In talking to rangers in the past their general take was:
> Leave nothing behind
> Leave things as you found them
> 
> Section 2(c) "...an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its
> primeval
> character and influence, without permanent improvement or human
> habitation..."
> I thought a cache would fall under "permanent improvement (even thou it is
> small) or human habitation"? If you leave a cache wouldn't that make it
> permanent object and show human habitation? I was concerned about
> geocaching
> making enemies in Park Service. If they do allow caches in wilderness
> areas,
> I agree great care and judgment should be utilized placing caches. Maybe
> some local guidelines or recommendations could be posted to help in these
> special areas.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rocfish
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Bensman
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:59 PM
> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest
> 
> -
> Hi Kurt,
> 
> Yes I know the differences between a Wilderness and a National Forest. I
> was
> one of the main people responsible for the designation of several of the
> areas you gave a link for.
> 
> There is nothing in the Wilderness Act or any of its regulations that
> prohibit geocaching.  Geocaching is perfectly consistent with Wilderness.
> 
> The problem we had on the Mark Twain was they have a rule against
> outfitters
> leaving a cache of supplies in a Wilderness Area.  They were saying that
> prohibited a geocache.  But we got them to acknowledge a geocache and
> outfitter's cache were not the same thing.
> 
> It's the natural areas, that great care is needed when placing a cache in.
> They are the most sensitive areas.
> 
> Jim Bensman
> "Nature Bats Last"
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-
> > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stoeppelman, Kurt
> > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:23 PM
> > To: 'geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> > Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest
> >
> > -
> >
> > I have seen the term Wilderness and National Forest Land used
> > interchangeably is emails. I am concerned that some geocachers don't
> > understand the differences between the two. Wilderness areas are land
> > set aside to remain in a natural state with no improvements like roads
> > or structures. From what I understand about the Wilderness Act, a
> > virtual cash is acceptable but, any container or tag placed in the
> > wilderness area would violate federal law. Caches must not be placed
> > in our wilderness areas for the well being of geocaching and the
> > wilderness areas. By not observing the rules of the Wilderness Areas
> > we may jeopardize our use of the much much larger National Forest
> > lands.
> >
> > I my self have placed a cache just outside the border of Bell Mountain
> > Wilderness Area. Besides caching I hike and backpack in these
> > wonderful areas. My cache was placed to bring cachers to trailhead
> > with hopes they visit and enjoy the wilderness as I have.
> >
> > I have include some additional info and links:
> >
> > The Wilderness Act was passed by Congress in 1964 and continues to be
> > the guiding piece of legislation for all Wilderness areas. The Act
> > defines Wilderness as follows:
> >
> > "...lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural
> > condition..." Section 2(a) "...an area where the earth and its
> > community of life are untrammeled by man..." Section 2(c) "...an area
> > of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and
> > influence, without permanent improvement or human habitation..."
> > Section
> > 2(c)
> > "...generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of
> > nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable..."
> > Section 2(c)
> > "...has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and
> > unconfined type of recreation..." Section 2(c) "...shall be devoted to
> > the public purposes of recreation, scenic, scientific, educational,
> > conservation and historic use." Section 4(b)
> >
> > Missouri Wilderness areas
> > http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=stateView&state=mo
> >
> > Illinois Wilderness areas
> > http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=stateView&state=il
> >
> > Wilderness Information Site
> > http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm
> >
> > Wilderness Ethics
> > Please practice leave no trace hiking and camping. You can reduce your
> > impact on the environment by observing these guidelines:
> >
> > Camping - Camp in trees as opposed to meadows. Pine duff can withstand
> > use much better than fragile meadow flowers and plants. Trees also
> > offer you privacy and shelter from the wind. Camp at least 100 feet
> > from trails and water. Animals will not come to water if you are too
> close.
> > Fire - Use a small camp stove and avoid building campfires whenever
> > possible. Campfires consume scarce vegetation and leave permanent
> > scars on the rocks and land. Also, the risk of starting a forest fire
> > is less when using a stove.
> >
> > Sanitation - Bury human waste in the top six to eight inches of
> > topsoil at least 100 feet from water sources, and urinate well away
> > from trails and water sources. If you must use soap, make sure it is
> biodegradable.
> >
> > Refuse - Pack out all garbage, litter and extra food. Nothing should
> > be left behind. Food scraps, like egg and peanut shells and orange
> > peels, take a long time to de-compose and are eyesores to other
> > hikers.
> >
> > Pets - Pets are allowed in the wilderness: however, they must be kept
> > under control at all times. Pets must not be allowed to chase
> > wildlife.
> >
> > Travel - Travel in wilderness areas is restricted to foot or
> > horseback. No motorized or mechanical equipment, including chainsaws
> > and bicycles, is allowed. Group size may also be restricted.
> >
> > Trails - Use existing trails, and avoid cutting switchbacks.
> > Shortcutting does not save time and will cause serious erosion problems.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Kurt Stoeppelman (Rocfish)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Bensman
> > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 11:07 AM
> > To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest
> >
> > -
> > You are right, but I would not go as far as nearly impossible.
> >
> > That is what has to be weighed.
> >
> > Now seems like a good time to explore this.  We have a good situation
> now.
> > The person who will actually make the decision on the Forest Plan is
> > Regional Forester Randy Moore who likes caching and is the one who
> > made Feakes back down when she was causing us problems.
> >
> > I think the best course of action would be for some to show up at the
> > open house and talk to Feakes and others to explore the possibility.
> > It could be determined how receptive they are to this before deciding
> > to try to get something in the Plan.
> >
> > Jim Bensman
> > "Nature Bats Last"
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-
> > > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of BruceS
> > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:01 AM
> > > To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest
> > >
> > > -
> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:31:01 -0600, Jim Bensman
> > > <jbensman1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > > > -
> > >   But if we get a good one, it will be
> > > > much harder for the Forest Service to change it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The converse is also true.  If we get a bad one it will be near
> > > impossible to change.
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