[GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest

-
I did not intend to imply that you did not know the difference. I wanted
people in general who did not know much about these areas to know their
special nature. In talking to rangers in the past their general take was:
Leave nothing behind
Leave things as you found them

Section 2(c) "...an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval
character and influence, without permanent improvement or human
habitation..." 
I thought a cache would fall under "permanent improvement (even thou it is
small) or human habitation"? If you leave a cache wouldn't that make it
permanent object and show human habitation? I was concerned about geocaching
making enemies in Park Service. If they do allow caches in wilderness areas,
I agree great care and judgment should be utilized placing caches. Maybe
some local guidelines or recommendations could be posted to help in these
special areas. 

Thanks

Rocfish

-----Original Message-----
From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Bensman
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:59 PM
To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest

-
Hi Kurt,

Yes I know the differences between a Wilderness and a National Forest. I was
one of the main people responsible for the designation of several of the
areas you gave a link for.  

There is nothing in the Wilderness Act or any of its regulations that
prohibit geocaching.  Geocaching is perfectly consistent with Wilderness.  

The problem we had on the Mark Twain was they have a rule against outfitters
leaving a cache of supplies in a Wilderness Area.  They were saying that
prohibited a geocache.  But we got them to acknowledge a geocache and
outfitter's cache were not the same thing.  

It's the natural areas, that great care is needed when placing a cache in.
They are the most sensitive areas.  

Jim Bensman
"Nature Bats Last" 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching- 
> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stoeppelman, Kurt
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:23 PM
> To: 'geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest
> 
> -
> 
> I have seen the term Wilderness and National Forest Land used 
> interchangeably is emails. I am concerned that some geocachers don't 
> understand the differences between the two. Wilderness areas are land 
> set aside to remain in a natural state with no improvements like roads 
> or structures. From what I understand about the Wilderness Act, a 
> virtual cash is acceptable but, any container or tag placed in the 
> wilderness area would violate federal law. Caches must not be placed 
> in our wilderness areas for the well being of geocaching and the 
> wilderness areas. By not observing the rules of the Wilderness Areas 
> we may jeopardize our use of the much much larger National Forest 
> lands.
> 
> I my self have placed a cache just outside the border of Bell Mountain 
> Wilderness Area. Besides caching I hike and backpack in these 
> wonderful areas. My cache was placed to bring cachers to trailhead 
> with hopes they visit and enjoy the wilderness as I have.
> 
> I have include some additional info and links:
> 
> The Wilderness Act was passed by Congress in 1964 and continues to be 
> the guiding piece of legislation for all Wilderness areas. The Act 
> defines Wilderness as follows:
> 
> "...lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural 
> condition..." Section 2(a) "...an area where the earth and its 
> community of life are untrammeled by man..." Section 2(c) "...an area 
> of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and 
> influence, without permanent improvement or human habitation..." 
> Section
> 2(c)
> "...generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of 
> nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable..."
> Section 2(c)
> "...has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and 
> unconfined type of recreation..." Section 2(c) "...shall be devoted to 
> the public purposes of recreation, scenic, scientific, educational, 
> conservation and historic use." Section 4(b)
> 
> Missouri Wilderness areas
> http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=stateView&state=mo
> 
> Illinois Wilderness areas
> http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=stateView&state=il
> 
> Wilderness Information Site
> http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm
> 
> Wilderness Ethics
> Please practice leave no trace hiking and camping. You can reduce your 
> impact on the environment by observing these guidelines:
> 
> Camping - Camp in trees as opposed to meadows. Pine duff can withstand 
> use much better than fragile meadow flowers and plants. Trees also 
> offer you privacy and shelter from the wind. Camp at least 100 feet 
> from trails and water. Animals will not come to water if you are too
close.
> Fire - Use a small camp stove and avoid building campfires whenever 
> possible. Campfires consume scarce vegetation and leave permanent 
> scars on the rocks and land. Also, the risk of starting a forest fire 
> is less when using a stove.
> 
> Sanitation - Bury human waste in the top six to eight inches of 
> topsoil at least 100 feet from water sources, and urinate well away 
> from trails and water sources. If you must use soap, make sure it is
biodegradable.
> 
> Refuse - Pack out all garbage, litter and extra food. Nothing should 
> be left behind. Food scraps, like egg and peanut shells and orange 
> peels, take a long time to de-compose and are eyesores to other 
> hikers.
> 
> Pets - Pets are allowed in the wilderness: however, they must be kept 
> under control at all times. Pets must not be allowed to chase 
> wildlife.
> 
> Travel - Travel in wilderness areas is restricted to foot or 
> horseback. No motorized or mechanical equipment, including chainsaws 
> and bicycles, is allowed. Group size may also be restricted.
> 
> Trails - Use existing trails, and avoid cutting switchbacks. 
> Shortcutting does not save time and will cause serious erosion problems.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Kurt Stoeppelman (Rocfish)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Bensman
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 11:07 AM
> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest
> 
> -
> You are right, but I would not go as far as nearly impossible.
> 
> That is what has to be weighed.
> 
> Now seems like a good time to explore this.  We have a good situation now.
> The person who will actually make the decision on the Forest Plan is 
> Regional Forester Randy Moore who likes caching and is the one who 
> made Feakes back down when she was causing us problems.
> 
> I think the best course of action would be for some to show up at the 
> open house and talk to Feakes and others to explore the possibility.  
> It could be determined how receptive they are to this before deciding 
> to try to get something in the Plan.
> 
> Jim Bensman
> "Nature Bats Last"
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching- 
> > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of BruceS
> > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:01 AM
> > To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Geocaching and the Mark Twain National Forest
> >
> > -
> > On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:31:01 -0600, Jim Bensman 
> > <jbensman1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> > > -
> >   But if we get a good one, it will be
> > > much harder for the Forest Service to change it.
> > >
> >
> > The converse is also true.  If we get a bad one it will be near 
> > impossible to change.
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