[gameprogrammer] Re: gameprogrammer Digest V4 #5

On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 01:51:49PM -0600, Bob Pendleton wrote:

> Please do not be offended by my reply here,

Of course.  It's just a discussion, isn't it?

> > In this environment, writing small games really seems to miss the point
> > because the most valuable thing you demostrate by this is the ability to
> > fulfill a goal and to self-manage yourself in order to do this.
> 
> Which is the *single most important* thing you can know about a
> programmer, or any other worker. If they can not manage themselves and
> fulfill goals you don't want them. They are poison in the work place.
> They take an enormous amount of manager time to keep people who can not
> self manage on task. Not to mention that the true expert is always the
> guy doing the work. If you can't trust someone to give you valid
> management feedback how can you possibly manage a project? Managers
> aren't gods. If everyone doesn't get involved in overall management you
> can't get projects done.
> 
> > However, goal-setting and management are supplied by managers and design
> > department during big title development.
> 
> And if those plans and goals don't get reality checks from the experts,
> the people doing the work, the managers and planners may as well be
> whistling out their asses.

Your last two paragraphs sound like there were just people who can work
totally without any external management, and assholes who aren't able to
do anything unless constantly prodded and threatened.  And nothing
between the two extremes.

In reality, most of the coders are neither of this.  Most of the coders
I know can fulfill assigned tasks just right and give accurate feedback
when asked but don't tend to interfere with managers' and designers'
work.  Some of them are even too weird to do anything that sounds like
management. ;-)

> >   Other than that, small games
> > don't really prove much by themselves.  They're just the basics, and
> > mostly a standard generic boiler-plate code.
> 
> Like you said, they can be used very effectively to learn new techniques
> and to experiment. Not to mention they are an easy way to become a
> better programmer.

Yes, but than again, any type of program can be used to learn new stuff.

I don't mean don't write games.  I mean do write some but don't expect them
to get you hired and be prepared do a lot more.  Like writing *other*
types of programs and even study some books on maths, physics etc.

And by the way, noone has enough time on their hands to be able to try
everything he reads in a book.  In contrast to what you write, it's
still *very* useful to read it, even without trying it yourself.  It's
not true that you don't know anything about it without trying.  You at
least know that it exists, you know the basic approach and you know
where to look up the rest.  That's awful lot and you're gonna appreciate
it when the need arises.

> By the end of your message to me you now sound like a space alien
> talking about human sexuality.

Well maybe, but what exactly is your point?  I hope I made my
proposition clear - for big game development, most if not all managerial
and design decisions are taken away from programmers' hands anyway.  For
that environment, you need specialists that understand their area
expertise, not jacks-of-all-trades.  So there's a visible mismatch
between the reality I live every day and the skillset you propose as
crucial.

So, in your opinion, where exactly is the problem with what I'm saying?

And by the way - I know of at least one example of a guy with the
skillset you propose.  A programmer used to self-manage, lead or co-lead
any project he was on, very agile and aware of the big picture.  He left
because he couldn't stand things taken out of his hands.

Again, don't forget that gamedev today is many things to many people.
Not all of them are favorable (e.g. the big team development is
unfortunate imho) but you need to deal with them anyway.

> Like I said, the depth of cultural difference here is much much larger
> than I realized.

However, it just occured to me that even though we're an Europe-based
team, basically our complete management is American with a couple of
Canadians.  Everything around Crysis is so secret that I'm no longer
sure what exactly I'm allowed to talk about but for example it's public
info that Crysis' dev director is Harald Seeley and lead designer Jack
Mamais.  Look them up on mobygames if needed.

> Last night I was at an info session for the game development program I
> teach in. A lot of members of our advisory board were there. Here is the
> list of advisers:
> 
> Rich Vogel
> Bioware Gordon Walton Bioware  Warren Spector Junction Point Studios
> Richard Garriott NCSoft Aaron Thibault SMU Guildhall Rodney Gibbs Amaze
> Entertainment Bill Louden Peer Forward Games Denise Fulton Midway Robin
> McShaffry Mary-Margaret.com Billy Cain Critical Mass Interactive Paul
> Trowe SkyZone Entertainment Chris Sherman Austin Game Initiative Spencer
> Zuzolo GameCamp! Chris Mayer NCSoft Brett Butler Public Games Todd
> Coleman Kingsisle Entertainment Ariel Comstock Women Game Developers
> 
> Our entire program is designed around making sure that students develop
> a portfolio that includes completed games. The board of advisers made
> that a priority. Look carefully at the names on the list.  

Sorry, with the exception of Warren Spector I don't know any of them. ;-)

But that doesn't mean much, I'm a programmer and not an industry watch.

And I'm not surprised the guys recommend writing games - if this is a
beginner-level curriculum then by all means, everyone should try to
write a game or two.  Again, it's not my point that they shouldn't.  My
point is that this is a basic skill, even more basic than knowledge of
C++ language.  Game programming  takes awful lot more than that.  So
after writing your couple of games, don't waste any more time on it and
head straight to what you want to do, be it physics, scripting engines
or whatever.

To round it up - my message to the guys on this list would be: if you
cannot produce your own tetris clone but you did write e.g. an ambient
occlusion preprocessor that's 3 times faster than the standard
algorithm, many big studios I know of would be happy to hear from you. :-)

        latimerius


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