[gameprogrammer] Re: gameprogrammer Digest V4 #5

On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 09:58 +0100, Latimerius wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 01:06:18PM -0600, Bob Pendleton wrote:
> 
> > > That's absolutely true, it's difficult to layoff people here.  But that
> > > would, as you note, mean that the interview should be more thorough.
> > > Yet, complete games don't seem to be required here.
> > 
> > Yes, more thorough, because the employer takes a longer view of the
> > employee. When hiring for the longer term you look for what the person
> > can learn to do. When hiring for the short term you look for what the
> > person can do *right now*.
> 
> I see.  I didn't understand your point previously.
> 
> > I don't know a single game programmer who did not do a number of small
> > games. 
> 
> This is funny.  It must be a cultural difference, with American nature
> being more "hands on" as they sometimes say, or something like that. :-)
> 
> Some game programmers I know did create a small game or two (or three
> :-) at some points of their carreers, some of them didn't, I suspect.
> Even those who did never explicitly focused on this AFAIK (that includes
> me) - one just writes a small game now and then, often to demostrate
> something, without thinking about it as a way to make yourself a better
> programmer.
> 
> It's rather a byproduct of your getting a better programmer than a means
> of getting to be a better programmer.  E.g. when I come up with a new
> entity system, or a new way of passing messages throughout the game,
> I'll write a program that's complete enough to prove that the idea is
> useful in practice.  That program will often be a game, but it doesn't
> have to be.  I never thought I would write games to prove I loved them.
> It goes without saying for me that I like writing games.
> 
> No matter how I try I can see no or almost no correlation between this
> and the programmer being good.

Please do not be offended by my reply here, it simply shows the depth of
cultural difference between your culture and mine. From where I sit what
just said sounds as weird as listening to virgin pretend to talk about
sex. 

> 
> > > I guess you can do it both ways.
> > 
> > I suppose so... But, I would never hire someone as a game programmer who
> > is not interested enough in the field to have written a game. Just as I
> > would not hire a database programmer who had never written a database
> > application. 
> 
> I gladly would, but it now occurs to me that we should make sure we're
> talking about the same thing.
> 
> I'm coming from an A- or AAA-level mostly-PC title development.  Those
> games are developed by rather big teams (which is unfortunate IMHO, I
> might add) where everyone does only some part of the whole and the team
> is "properly" managed (i.e. everybody works on-site, with a traditional
> managerial structure in place).

Yeah, I've been a manager in a "traditional" software development shop
and in a game programming shop. 

> 
> In this environment, writing small games really seems to miss the point
> because the most valuable thing you demostrate by this is the ability to
> fulfill a goal and to self-manage yourself in order to do this.

Which is the *single most important* thing you can know about a
programmer, or any other worker. If they can not manage themselves and
fulfill goals you don't want them. They are poison in the work place.
They take an enormous amount of manager time to keep people who can not
self manage on task. Not to mention that the true expert is always the
guy doing the work. If you can't trust someone to give you valid
management feedback how can you possibly manage a project? Managers
aren't gods. If everyone doesn't get involved in overall management you
can't get projects done.

> However, goal-setting and management are supplied by managers and design
> department during big title development.

And if those plans and goals don't get reality checks from the experts,
the people doing the work, the managers and planners may as well be
whistling out their asses.

>   Other than that, small games
> don't really prove much by themselves.  They're just the basics, and
> mostly a standard generic boiler-plate code.

Like you said, they can be used very effectively to learn new techniques
and to experiment. Not to mention they are an easy way to become a
better programmer. I mean, you can read about something in a book and
even code it up for yourself, but until you use it in an application you
don't really know anything about it.

> 
> So if someone told me he wrote 5 small games, I'm unimpressed at least
> until I see the code.  Did the guy just copied over his mainloop all the
> time?  Then too bad for him - even if he wrote 50 games this way you
> don't need him for a 30-programmer, 3-year project.  However - did he
> use those 5 games to develop a nice event-action translation library for
> input handling that can load bindings from a text/XML file?  If so, then
> that's much better.  But, in that case it doesn't matter that much
> whether the programs he demostrated are games or tools or simulation
> programs or whatever.
> 
> On the other hand, if small games development as such (e.g. for small,
> handheld or mobile platforms, presumably Java-based) is what you have in
> mind, then it's completely different.  For this you do need guys that
> can manage themselves, that can work quickly and get things done.  The
> emphasis on code quality is not very strong since everything ships in a
> couple of months and then re-starts from the scratch.  For this, you
> really don't need a guy who wrote a program demonstrating 15 different
> 3D pathfinders or a complete spherical harmonics lighting library
> because only simple things are done.
> 
> So it depends on what exactly you want to do.
> 
>       latimerius
> 

Like I said, the depth of cultural difference here is much much larger
than I realized. By the end of your message to me you now sound like a
space alien talking about human sexuality. I do not mean to be
offensive. I'm just really surprised at the difference in point of
view. 

Last night I was at an info session for the game development program I
teach in. A lot of members of our advisory board were there. Here is the
list of advisers:

Rich Vogel
Bioware Gordon Walton Bioware  Warren Spector Junction Point Studios
Richard Garriott NCSoft Aaron Thibault SMU Guildhall Rodney Gibbs Amaze
Entertainment Bill Louden Peer Forward Games Denise Fulton Midway Robin
McShaffry Mary-Margaret.com Billy Cain Critical Mass Interactive Paul
Trowe SkyZone Entertainment Chris Sherman Austin Game Initiative Spencer
Zuzolo GameCamp! Chris Mayer NCSoft Brett Butler Public Games Todd
Coleman Kingsisle Entertainment Ariel Comstock Women Game Developers

Our entire program is designed around making sure that students develop
a portfolio that includes completed games. The board of advisers made
that a priority. Look carefully at the names on the list.  

                Bob Pendleton


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