[gameprogrammer] Re: Scoreboard functionality across internet

New concept, an counter-game program, one that plays the game for you in
virtual space.

The high score thing reminds me of the awards that Activision use to
hand out for scoring the maximum for their games.  PCs and Macs weren't
around then (I don't think) but I had my trusty Altair 8800 with a
Cromemco card.  Activision just wanted you to send a photograph of the
screen with the max score on it to claim your prize.  I was tempted to
fake up some graphics.  However, I managed a seven hour marathon of
Laser Blast only to find I didn't have a camera available when I got my
high score.  

Lilith

>>> On 11/28/2006 at 4:16 PM, in message
<10560e2e0611281416ye943b3nadc8de63ddf00b92@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Alan
Wolfe"
<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> lol i love that idea that they would have to have the game run for
> months to be able to get the 78 trillion points
> 
> On 11/28/06, Bob Pendleton <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 13:03 -0800, Alan Wolfe wrote:
>> > Thats a neat idea
>> >
>> > I could see a one time pad being used too for the sequence
numbers, or
>> > maybe one of those chaotic functions that are sensitive to
initial
>> > conditions and just keep pumping the current sequence number
through
>> > the equation to get the next sequence number.
>> >
>> > I wonder what a reasonable level of security is.
>>
>> That is the key question and I can't really address it. But I do see
two
>> different ways to approach the problem. How do you prevent cheating
and
>> how do you detect cheating?
>>
>> You prevent cheating by making it hard to cheat. Many people will
cheat
>> if all they have to do is record some packets and play them back.
Very
>> few people will cheat if they have to write custom code to do it.
But,
>> some will cheat no matter what you do. So, you need a way to detect
>> cheating as well as prevent it. One way to do that is to profile
>> players. No one jumps on a new game and scores 78 trillion points in
the
>> first day. The other thing is that if you put a time stamp in the
score
>> messages you can keep track of the average time between scoring
points
>> and compare what the message says with the actual arrival times of
the
>> messages. That way to fake the messages you have to fake the
expected
>> distribution of scoring times. That is something the cheater can
not
>> know and does not know about. If they do figure it out it still
forces
>> cheat programs to run at the same rate as normal play. So, to score
78
>> trillion points you have to run the program for months. Any game
that
>> runs for more than a few days is clearly not being played by one
human
>> being.
>>
>> This is fun.
>>
>>        Bob Pendleton
>>
>>
>> >
>> > IE is it likely someone will take the time to break a game if it
uses
>> > a sequence number on each packet that starts at 0?
>>
>> >
>> > if so, what about the server telling the client the first
sequence
>> > number, does that make it statistically more safe or is it still
>> > pretty likely to be cracked?
>> >
>> > If it's likely to be cracked does a "chaotic function" which
generates
>> > new sequence numbers add on enough complexity to make it that
much
>> > more safe?
>> >
>> > and encryption etc...
>> >
>> > it seems like you can pretty much go forever with security but
how
>> > secure is secure enough?
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/28/06, Bob Pendleton <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > > On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 00:29 -0800, Alan Wolfe wrote:
>> > > > that is a really neat technique.
>> > > >
>> > > > that sure makes it computationally expensive to fake the high
score
>> > >
>> > > How about this. Every time the player scores a message is sent
to the
>> > > server. The game keeps a sequence number that is incremented for
each
>> > > message and sent along with the score information. The start of
the
>> > > sequence number can be retrieved from the server at the start of
each
>> > > game or it can be stored in the low order bits of an image file
so it is
>> > > hard to find on the disk and is maintained and updated each time
the
>> > > game is run. The server keeps track of the sequence number. The
score
>> > > messages are encrypted based on the sequence number. The idea is
to make
>> > > the sequence number very hard to fake. Plus, the server can not
even
>> > > read messages with bad sequence numbers.
>> > >
>> > >                Bob Pendleton
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 11/21/06, Dave Slutzkin <daveslutzkin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > > > > On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:29:55 -0800, "Alan Wolfe"
<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > > said:
>> > > > > > Hey you guys,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I'm thinking of trying to implement a global scoreboard
for a game.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The game itself is a standard desktop game where you have
the exe and
>> > > > > > files needed on your computer (ie its not a web based game
or flash or
>> > > > > > anything) and the scoreboard i want to reside on a web
page.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Doing the web and database thing isn't a problem but I was
wondering,
>> > > > > > are there any techniques to make this process secure?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > You could send the server the entire run of the game - the
start state
>> > > > > and every piece of input in between it and the end state. 
The server
>> > > > > could then run through the game itself and generate the
score that way.
>> > > > > This sounds like a lot of data but if stored efficiently and
then
>> > > > > compressed it might be all right, depending on the
application.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > It'd still be possible to hack this but much harder, cause
each bit of
>> > > > > input affects the state after it and so changing one may
actually
>> > > > > invalidate later pieces of input - at which point the server
could throw
>> > > > > the log away.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Dave.
>> > > > > --
>> > > > >  Dave Slutzkin
>> > > > >  Melbourne, Australia
>> > > > >  daveslutzkin@xxxxxxxxxxx 
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ---------------------
>> > > > > To unsubscribe go to
http://gameprogrammer.com/mailinglist.html 
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ---------------------
>> > > > To unsubscribe go to
http://gameprogrammer.com/mailinglist.html 
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > --
>> > > +--------------------------------------+
>> > > + Bob Pendleton: writer and programmer +
>> > > + email: Bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx             +
>> > > + web: www.GameProgrammer.com          +
>> > > + www.Wise2Food.com                    +
>> > > + nutrient info on 7,000+ common foods +
>> > > +--------------------------------------+
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ---------------------
>> > > To unsubscribe go to http://gameprogrammer.com/mailinglist.html

>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > ---------------------
>> > To unsubscribe go to http://gameprogrammer.com/mailinglist.html 
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> +--------------------------------------+
>> + Bob Pendleton: writer and programmer +
>> + email: Bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx             +
>> + web: www.GameProgrammer.com          +
>> + www.Wise2Food.com                    +
>> + nutrient info on 7,000+ common foods +
>> +--------------------------------------+
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------
>> To unsubscribe go to http://gameprogrammer.com/mailinglist.html 
>>
>>
>>
> 
> ---------------------
> To unsubscribe go to http://gameprogrammer.com/mailinglist.html

---------------------
To unsubscribe go to http://gameprogrammer.com/mailinglist.html

Other related posts: