[gameprogrammer] Re: Rant on the Wind of Change (blitz -> Torque)

Well about the book you told me i have seen that book and it looks goo. Will
the book teach me from the beging of Torque or should i know som stuff
already. What games have you made. You seem to be a really nice guy maybe we
could make a game together (if i catch up to your level) but if you help me
i might be able to. Please reply and tell me more about the games you have
created uing Torque.

On 9/26/07, Jason Zaphyr <storm3@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>  A good book for Torque engine is a 700+ Page Bible like book almost for
> the torque engine called:
> Game Programming All In One, I believe there are now two editions, I only
> have the first edition, which comes with a CD containing several tools, a
> demo version of torque, Ultra Edit shareware, Milkshape3d, and tons more,
> along with example apps, and media from each of the chapters of the book.  I
> recommend it thoroughly to anyone needing to learn How to model, create
> textures, and UV Map and apply the texture to models, and even level design,
> along with how to use Torque Script, a C Like language which is typeless,
> and very easy to learn and utilize to script your game.  Also, Keep in mind
> you actually have the sourcecode to Torque in C/C++ so you don't have to use
> Torque Script you could code your game in C++ which is kinda advanced, I
> would recommend starting in Torque Script first.  Keep in mind Torque can
> be used for all kinds of games, 2D, 3D, First Person Shooters, 3rd Person,
> Racing, etc..  it contains physics functions, even shaders, and a special
> lighting setup, and a great online client server portion, allowing great
> online games, including even waiting rooms, with chat capabilities, even
> make RPG or RTS Games, *NOTE* There is actually a special version of Torque
> already setup to make RTS games, I purchased the RTS Kit, which makes
> creating the next Supreme Commander or Total Annihilation (copyright of
> Cavedog), also there is an adventure kit as well, which has a Torque engine
> tailor made to create Action Adventure games in 3D, using Torque.
>
> The kewl thing, is Torque is a torture tested engine, which has been used
> in several real commercial products, including Tribes II.  Also, you create
> your levels using the Quark Level editor, which is the Quake Swiss Army
> Knife Level Editor.  There are several other editors which you can use, such
> as 3DS Max (expensive / hard to master), Maya (Same Problems), and require
> convertors.  I believe you should also be able to use Qoole or whatever Half
> Life team Valve is calling their Hammer Product these days, as long as it
> makes a BSP Map file, I'm sure it is useable, or there is most likely a
> convertor available, so you can use what editor you feel comfortable with.
>
> Also, if you can't afford Max or Maya, then I suggest IMHO the best 3D
> Modeling tool in the world, I know, a huge / big statement, but you can't do
> better for ease of use, maximum amount of features, including onion skin
> animation modes, real Inverse Kinematics, Bone Animations, as well as being
> able to paint and texture models right in the editor, and also one of the
> most important of any editors out there, the slew of supported formats,
> including both import and export support for virtually any file format you
> could need, basically IMHO if this editor can't import or export to a format
> you need, you can use LUA scripting engine built in to write your own custom
> made, but with torque, no need, as it is already supported.  Now I know alot
> of users swear by Milkshape3D, and let me first say, I cut my teeth on it,
> and learned alot, but then I found and helped beta test as well as suggest
> and test features for a little program called Fragmotion, and I have never
> looked back.  I still d/l MS3D updates from time to time, to see how close
> they are from catching up to Frag, and I'm sorry, but for both styles of
> modeling including #1) Solid Generic Object Modeling using already made
> shapes, to make your stuff, or #2) Using hand made Vertexes along with Face
> Connections, has made Fragmotion a Weapon in the hands of those willing to
> put the time in, and play with it.  Also, virtually everything in the
> interface, and keybindings, and mouse, etc.. are all customizable, and
> saveable, so if you have to reload it, you can simply load your previously
> saved bindings, and custom menus, which btw: I suggest making a sub-menu
> item called General Purpose and include all the generic shapes, and all the
> camera functions, and all the movement / rotation / modification / extrusion
> functions, even all the way down to vertex level to this sub menu, then dock
> the three main menu things I suggest that are only needed while modeling to
> start with, such as: Tools, Model, Properties, then turn off the others
> under the view menu, this way when you select tools, and select your
> sub-menu of GenPurpose you will be able to see almost all items, which will
> greatly speed up your modeling, as you will spend alot less time scrolling
> the tools list back and forth, and spend more time actually creating your
> model.  Oh, and animation is a snap, using joints, bones, and vertex
> weighting along with IK, creating realistic or even wild out of this world
> animations are a piece of cake, then top it off, by painting your model
> right inside Fragmotion, and then you can save your model to *.ugh which is
> the Frag default file format, then you can export directly to several Torque
> friendly formats, I think it even might do the terrains and levels, although
> that part I have not tested, so don't quote me on that one, but I can tell
> you Frag is awesome once you set it up to your liking, and play around
> learning it.
>
> Okay, I'm off my soap box now, and BTW: I also use Frag for my 3D Game
> Studio A7 development, I find it far superior to even the built in 3DGS A7
> MED model editor which is supposed to be made for 3DGS, sorry Frag is just
> sooooo Easy.
>
> By the way I am in the process of writing a tutorial for modeling using
> Fragmotion, including such things, as how to start, by setting up the editor
> correctly for your liking, ease of use, saving your setup, then I go over
> several tips about the editor items, such as key bindings, items to put in
> your special GenPurpose Menu, and making your first simple model, made from
> using several of the built in shapes, such as cube, sphere's, torus, etc..
> then modifying those objects, and combining them, morphing their shape,
> scaling, moving verts etc..  Also, ensuring you get in the habit of saving
> your objects as you make changes, and naming groups as you go, to ensure
> they make since when animating them and / or painting them.  Finally, I hope
> to show you just how really easy it is to use the vertex / face advanced
> modeling feature, to create models out of this world, stuff you didn't ever
> dream you could make that fast.  I learned several tricks to ensure you
> select the right verts, while using the face tool to connect them, also how
> to ensure your faces have double sided on by default so no holes in models
> and funky clear invisible faces from the other side.  I also cover tricks
> such as how to use inserting verts in front or side view first, then
> connecting them in the 3D view, makes it much easier to ensure you have the
> correct vert and not one behind the one you want, if you rotate the verts /
> model in just the right way, you should be able to ensure you select just
> the right verts as you make your faces, and it also allows you to rotate
> your model around on the fly checking out your progress as you go.  Using
> this technique, along with extrusion, movement, face edge turning, and you
> can make some eye catching, awesome models, and I am going to create a begin
> to end tutorial and give it to everyone whom wants it on the list, I just
> have to decide on the recording software to use, to record my tutorial as I
> select objects, and do stuff in the editor, one that lets me type in
> messages, or even speak the instructions into a microphone as I record the
> tutorial.  Once I find the tutorial / recorder / creation app, I will be
> making several of these howto's and make several of them available free from
> my website www.mirrovisionstudios.com which is my game / entertainment
> personal company name.
>
> Oh, a bit off topic, but did I mention that you can also use fragmotion to
> generate Sprite images from your 3D Objects you create and animate, perfect
> for 2D game development systems as well as when you just want an object to
> be a 2D billboard in your 3D game, to provide eyecandy, but NOT slow down
> your gameplay.  Think of making objects for a puzzle game in Frag, animate
> them spinning, bouncing or exploding, and then click make sprites and
> specify the filename, and directory, and viola, you have a very simple way
> to create all your game content whether 2D or 3D, whoo, sorry to ramble on
> and on, but I love this tool, and I am so happy you are making the jump from
> blitz3D to torque, don't get me wrong I used Blitz3D for a few great
> projects, and still do make use of it from time to time, such as one of the
> versions of my puzzle game titled: Seeds of Time, the 3D version was made in
> Blitz3D, and worked out really nicely, I just kept running into errors with
> the collision detection, as I was trying to get all the fruit items to fall
> down onto the game board, stopping when they collided with the game board,
> and bounce even, just some simple eyecandy, and it frustrated me that
> sometimes it worked, others, the fruit would fall through going forever.
> I'm sure it was my fault, with some logic bug in my code, but I found it
> alot faster and easier to just throw it together with Game Maker 5.xsomething 
> at the time, but back then I didn't have Frag and had to use MS3D
> and generate the sprites of the fruit with screen caps done by hand, and
> then changing bg color to black, and alot of times had to hand paint the
> fruit edges to get rid of jaggies, now with frag all that is a great memory!
>
> Phew, I hope this helps, and if you want to talk more private, get some
> help with a project, whatever, let me know, I even think there is an E-Book
> of that book I told you about The Game Programming All In One, By Luke Ahern
> I believe, I found this after I bought the book, I believe in purchasing the
> book, it is cheap and for all the info it teaches you, it is worth its
> weight in gold, especially if just for the modeling / texturing / level
> editing and the torque script help, it is an invaluable source.  So buy the
> book and support the developer, as you know us indie gamers are struggling
> artists ehhehe.  Good Luck with your programming projects in the future and
> I hope you find all the info you need to make the next great game on the
> block, and somehow I helped you in a way, that you will shoot me an email to
> say thanks at: storm3@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Jason Zaphyr aka Ken aka StOrM3 - Yes that StOrM3, the Total Annihilation
> Unit Editor Author along with Kinboat, 3do format reverse engineered in 48
> hours straight no sleep, lots of coffee, then a dxf->3do file format
> conversion tool, which spring boarded my game development interest.  I
> have Four Completed Games Under my belt, which is hard for alot of people to
> say, as alot start em' but very few finish them.
>
> PS.  -  Thanks for listening to my Rant / Tutorial / Testimonial / Product
> Suggestions.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* (r)£$ǖ"v@M$Ħ ¢(c) $........... <v@M$%C4%A6+%C2%A2%C2%A9+$...........>
> *To:* gameprogrammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 25, 2007 6:58 AM
> *Subject:* [gameprogrammer] Re: Rant on the Wind of Change
>
> have any of you heard of blitz basic. i use that right now but i want to
> move onto the torque game engine. Is torque a good game engine and what
> would be a good book for that.
>
> On 9/24/07, kuon <kuon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > This thread deserve to be in some guinness book, not for it's length,
> > but mostly for it's content.
> >
> > When I read what people say, I can agree to nearly everything.
> >
> >
> > I'm a C coder, I always hated C++ because I think it add nothing needed
> > to C and it syntax is confusing (that is, more than C).
> >
> >
> > Obj-C on the other hand is nicer, but I don't think it's a replacement
> > to C.
> >
> >
> > I think language should be used for what they were created. Maybe I'm
> > wrong, maybe people will start throwing things at me, but here is how I use
> > today's languages:
> >
> >
> > C
> > For example, currently, I'm writing a network 3d game.
> >
> >
> > In that game, everything is in C except the UI which is in lua. Lua is
> > used for the UI because it's way more flexible, I can give the job to some
> > less experimented programmers, it keeps the game logic clean, and lua syntax
> > is more adapted for this.
> >
> >
> > A little example of what lua do well is in defining the interface, like:
> >  C[1] = {
> >  UsernameLbl = Label:new {
> > x = -150,
> > y = 250,
> > a_h = LEFT,
> > size = 'Big',
> > text = L['Username:']
> > },
> > UsernameFld = TextField:new {
> > x = -150,
> > y = 200,
> > a_h = LEFT,
> > size = 'Big',
> > K = {TAB = Login_FocusPasswordField, RETURN = Login_DoLogin, ENTER =
> > Login_DoLogin}
> > }
> > }
> >
> >
> > This is straight lua, then I can do C[1].UsernameFld to access my
> > username field.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ruby
> > Yea, I do some Ruby. Actually, I use it for Ruby on Rails. I think Ruby
> > is perfectly suited for it. Mapping the objects to the database is really
> > well done in RoR. I know, many will argue about the design decision of RoR
> > and Ruby itself, but I know it's not an universal solution. But for new
> > project, it is really well suited.
> >
> >
> > I love the Ruby syntax because it's very short to get the job done, and
> > when you are writing a little online tool to manage the timeline of the game
> > lore (like I did), you are very happy with Ruby and Rails.
> >
> >
> > Ruby is also nice for testing, if I had to test some algorithm, I would
> > surely do it in Ruby as it has many good tools for it.
> >
> >
> > Lua
> > I think lua is a very elegant and clean scripting language. I also think
> > it sucks at debugging and finding errors, that's why (in the game I'm
> > working on) all the C underlayer is responsible for errors (of course, you
> > have to do the error in our own C API).
> >
> >
> > Lua is also, in my opinion, the best language to add into a bigger
> > application, a couple of C files and there you go!
> >
> >
> > Java
> > I did a lot of Java coding, I did a couple of WebObjects application, I
> > did some embedded java, I used Faces and some other web technologies.
> > Now, I don't do any Java, I replaced web coding with Ruby and Rails and
> > I don't have any project concerning embedded devices.
> >
> >
> > One of the problem of Java is the memory usage, this is mostly because
> > nearly all types are long and in object programming, this can grow very
> > large very quickly. But java has a lot of advantages:
> > - Virtual Machine
> > - You can do a Windows/Mac/linux/Solaris app in a jar and just bundle
> > this with very few hassle.
> > - It has a huge set of libraries.
> >
> >
> > But it also has some drawbacks:
> > - Memory footprint
> > - Language is not elegant, it's just C with perhaps 3 added syntax.
> > - Many API are not high level enough, even for a "high level" language,
> > but I think this is because Java was not thought as high level, but on this
> > I don't know and I just say many API could be simpler. (OK they changed a
> > lot now)
> > - It's sometime too easy to get the job done by copy pasting code. This
> > is an issue. Copy pasting is evil in coding, you can inspire yourself from
> > some code, but having to maintain code you do not understand is not good, in
> > that case, just use a lib.
> >
> >
> > Now, I'll say java is evolving to be better, java has a huge market and
> > it's becoming better every new release. If I have to make some logic that
> > quickly need to work on multi platforms (without any ifdef, and higher level
> > than just console, because C is very portable when you don't touch the GUI)
> > I'll use Java.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Objective-C
> >
> >
> > Ok, if you are still reading, there you go.
> >
> >
> > I think objc do things really well. It separate the object model from
> > the procedural model with:
> >
> >
> > for(i = 0; i < 10; i++)   // Porcedural programming
> >     [myObject doSomthing];  // OO programming
> >
> >
> > This is where it does things better than java and C++.
> >
> >
> > So, this is for the syntax. Then, I love the fact you can do plain C in
> > it, this is personal, I did C for quite some years now (about 14, but I'm
> > 23yo, so that's quite a lot for me).
> >
> >
> > I think, Obj-C is needed (I mean over C) exactly for what Apple uses it,
> > Application development.
> >
> >
> > Things like Notification center, autorelease pool, key value coding and
> > key value coding observation, nib files... Are juse in need of that
> > language. Of course, you could have made it simpler. But now I'm on 
> > 10.5(yea, legally), and even if I can't speak about it, I can say I'm 
> > amazed.
> > I've been playing with computers since I was 4yo (I did some super paint on
> > an SE 30 back then, nothing fancy like many of you who are far more
> > experienced than me, but I still remember it), I tested gazillion of user
> > interfaces and I'm amazed. Apple job on the UI is incredible. Many things
> > just works (like drag and drop of nearly everything everywhere)...
> >
> >
> > I realize the logic needed to make it work. And to make it maintainable
> > by human beings like us, you need a tool, and Obj-C is that tool. It's a bit
> > like lua in my game, it's to maintain the UI, use it's functions...
> >
> >
> > I know many of you are mad at Apple deprecating things like they do. But
> > it's legitimate. Of course, I agree it should continue working and just
> > issue a warning.
> >
> >
> > I encourage the change. Yea, I know I'm young and I hope I can still
> > live quite some time and it might be more than some of you. I have a really
> > high respect for the work you did and will do, you helped me a great lot in
> > my life, and I know you will continue. Your wisdom in coding is great and
> > it's an honor to have learned from many of you, even if you don't know you
> > helped me. (I speak to a wider audience than just that mailing list)
> >
> >
> > It's fun, I started many sentences with I and they as they are aligned,
> > it's a fancy effect:)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > We all know that there is nothing more frustrating than a change we
> > didn't want. But that's what make use move forward. There are good and bad
> > changes, but they all put our adaptation capabilities under stress, and this
> > is what makes us evolve. At least, this is what I think. I know I sound like
> > a crumpled newspaper or some idiot on the TV, I wish I did not but I know I
> > do.
> >
> >
> > Apple is doing great things, nobody can deny it, I agree with Zack and
> > other that it's at a cost which is too great sometimes. But I did the move
> > to 10.5 and I was really happy to see I had to do nothing except hitting
> > build to have all my apps working. Ok, there is no carbon apps in the lot,
> > there are some really old C code, of course, the game (nearly 1mio of C code
> > if you count the math libs which is quite big because of ASM for multiple
> > platforms) and a couple of Cocoa apps. I spent 1h putting my cross compiler
> > for windows back on line and there we go.
> >
> >
> > I know the problem is really about Carbon, but Apple stated, you'll have
> > to move to Cocoa. Again, as a young person, I took the move, and I recoded
> > all my apps from Carbon to Cocoa as soon as I had my first Mac OS X CD. It
> > was a pain, it was frustrating, sometimes, I just started from scratch, my
> > libs would not compile... But I had time for it, I was discovering something
> > new.
> >
> >
> > Now, many of you are older and "made" the computers as they are now.
> > Again, your work is incredible, it's with all of you that we are were we are
> > now. All the games you did, all of this.
> >
> >
> > But it's not because the game don't work anymore that it has been a lack
> > of time. I truly think all things should come an go, this includes myself.
> > Now it's time for Cocoa and OpenGL games. I encourage you to created new
> > games using those technologies. You can, as Zack did for dark
> > castle, revamp the game. I will feel immensely happy when the new dark
> > castle comes out. I know the old one passed away, and I keep it's good
> > memories with me.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm a bit sorry for this message, it was a pain to read, my english is
> > far from perfect and I'm very bad at explaining things. I'm the kind of
> > person overwhelmed by it's feeling and I could write a book to explain all
> > of it.
> >
> >
> > As a final note, I encourage all of you to continue the hard work. I
> > really hope we will all be together in the train and nobody will be left
> > behind, I know it's utopic, but if I stopped being utopic, I would die right
> > away.
> >
> >
> > I wish you the best to all of you.
> >
> >
> > From a little rookie.
> >
> > --
> > Kuon
> >
> > "Don't press that button."
> > http://goyman.com/
> > Blog: http://kuon.goyman.com/
>
>
>
>
> --
> Reply,
> (r)(((???£   Ŝǖ"v@ˉ˘MśĦ ¢  ???)))(c)
>
>


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