[gameprogrammer] Re: Rant on the Wind of Change

I've just started learning torque myself and am using this book, it's
pretty nice:

http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/416/the_game_industry_salary_survey_.php?page=2

On 9/25/07, (r)£$ǖv@M$Ħ ¢(c) $........... <theamericansushi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> have any of you heard of blitz basic. i use that right now but i want to
> move onto the torque game engine. Is torque a good game engine and what
> would be a good book for that.
>
>
> On 9/24/07, kuon <kuon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > This thread deserve to be in some guinness book, not for it's length, but
> mostly for it's content.
> >
> >
> > When I read what people say, I can agree to nearly everything.
> >
> >
> > I'm a C coder, I always hated C++ because I think it add nothing needed to
> C and it syntax is confusing (that is, more than C).
> >
> >
> > Obj-C on the other hand is nicer, but I don't think it's a replacement to
> C.
> >
> >
> > I think language should be used for what they were created. Maybe I'm
> wrong, maybe people will start throwing things at me, but here is how I use
> today's languages:
> >
> >
> > C
> > For example, currently, I'm writing a network 3d game.
> >
> >
> > In that game, everything is in C except the UI which is in lua. Lua is
> used for the UI because it's way more flexible, I can give the job to some
> less experimented programmers, it keeps the game logic clean, and lua syntax
> is more adapted for this.
> >
> >
> > A little example of what lua do well is in defining the interface, like:
> >
> > C[1] = {
> >  UsernameLbl = Label:new {
> > x = -150,
> > y = 250,
> > a_h = LEFT,
> > size = 'Big',
> > text = L['Username:']
> > },
> > UsernameFld = TextField:new {
> > x = -150,
> > y = 200,
> > a_h = LEFT,
> > size = 'Big',
> > K = {TAB = Login_FocusPasswordField, RETURN = Login_DoLogin, ENTER =
> Login_DoLogin}
> > }
> > }
> >
> >
> > This is straight lua, then I can do C[1].UsernameFld to access my username
> field.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ruby
> > Yea, I do some Ruby. Actually, I use it for Ruby on Rails. I think Ruby is
> perfectly suited for it. Mapping the objects to the database is really well
> done in RoR. I know, many will argue about the design decision of RoR and
> Ruby itself, but I know it's not an universal solution. But for new project,
> it is really well suited.
> >
> >
> > I love the Ruby syntax because it's very short to get the job done, and
> when you are writing a little online tool to manage the timeline of the game
> lore (like I did), you are very happy with Ruby and Rails.
> >
> >
> > Ruby is also nice for testing, if I had to test some algorithm, I would
> surely do it in Ruby as it has many good tools for it.
> >
> >
> > Lua
> > I think lua is a very elegant and clean scripting language. I also think
> it sucks at debugging and finding errors, that's why (in the game I'm
> working on) all the C underlayer is responsible for errors (of course, you
> have to do the error in our own C API).
> >
> >
> > Lua is also, in my opinion, the best language to add into a bigger
> application, a couple of C files and there you go!
> >
> >
> > Java
> > I did a lot of Java coding, I did a couple of WebObjects application, I
> did some embedded java, I used Faces and some other web technologies.
> > Now, I don't do any Java, I replaced web coding with Ruby and Rails and I
> don't have any project concerning embedded devices.
> >
> >
> > One of the problem of Java is the memory usage, this is mostly because
> nearly all types are long and in object programming, this can grow very
> large very quickly. But java has a lot of advantages:
> > - Virtual Machine
> > - You can do a Windows/Mac/linux/Solaris app in a jar and just bundle this
> with very few hassle.
> > - It has a huge set of libraries.
> >
> >
> > But it also has some drawbacks:
> > - Memory footprint
> > - Language is not elegant, it's just C with perhaps 3 added syntax.
> > - Many API are not high level enough, even for a "high level" language,
> but I think this is because Java was not thought as high level, but on this
> I don't know and I just say many API could be simpler. (OK they changed a
> lot now)
> > - It's sometime too easy to get the job done by copy pasting code. This is
> an issue. Copy pasting is evil in coding, you can inspire yourself from some
> code, but having to maintain code you do not understand is not good, in that
> case, just use a lib.
> >
> >
> > Now, I'll say java is evolving to be better, java has a huge market and
> it's becoming better every new release. If I have to make some logic that
> quickly need to work on multi platforms (without any ifdef, and higher level
> than just console, because C is very portable when you don't touch the GUI)
> I'll use Java.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Objective-C
> >
> >
> > Ok, if you are still reading, there you go.
> >
> >
> > I think objc do things really well. It separate the object model from the
> procedural model with:
> >
> >
> > for(i = 0; i < 10; i++)   // Porcedural programming
> >     [myObject doSomthing];  // OO programming
> >
> >
> > This is where it does things better than java and C++.
> >
> >
> > So, this is for the syntax. Then, I love the fact you can do plain C in
> it, this is personal, I did C for quite some years now (about 14, but I'm
> 23yo, so that's quite a lot for me).
> >
> >
> > I think, Obj-C is needed (I mean over C) exactly for what Apple uses it,
> Application development.
> >
> >
> > Things like Notification center, autorelease pool, key value coding and
> key value coding observation, nib files... Are juse in need of that
> language. Of course, you could have made it simpler. But now I'm on 10.5
> (yea, legally), and even if I can't speak about it, I can say I'm amazed.
> I've been playing with computers since I was 4yo (I did some super paint on
> an SE 30 back then, nothing fancy like many of you who are far more
> experienced than me, but I still remember it), I tested gazillion of user
> interfaces and I'm amazed. Apple job on the UI is incredible. Many things
> just works (like drag and drop of nearly everything everywhere)...
> >
> >
> > I realize the logic needed to make it work. And to make it maintainable by
> human beings like us, you need a tool, and Obj-C is that tool. It's a bit
> like lua in my game, it's to maintain the UI, use it's functions...
> >
> >
> > I know many of you are mad at Apple deprecating things like they do. But
> it's legitimate. Of course, I agree it should continue working and just
> issue a warning.
> >
> >
> > I encourage the change. Yea, I know I'm young and I hope I can still live
> quite some time and it might be more than some of you. I have a really high
> respect for the work you did and will do, you helped me a great lot in my
> life, and I know you will continue. Your wisdom in coding is great and it's
> an honor to have learned from many of you, even if you don't know you helped
> me. (I speak to a wider audience than just that mailing list)
> >
> >
> > It's fun, I started many sentences with I and they as they are aligned,
> it's a fancy effect:)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > We all know that there is nothing more frustrating than a change we didn't
> want. But that's what make use move forward. There are good and bad changes,
> but they all put our adaptation capabilities under stress, and this is what
> makes us evolve. At least, this is what I think. I know I sound like a
> crumpled newspaper or some idiot on the TV, I wish I did not but I know I
> do.
> >
> >
> > Apple is doing great things, nobody can deny it, I agree with Zack and
> other that it's at a cost which is too great sometimes. But I did the move
> to 10.5 and I was really happy to see I had to do nothing except hitting
> build to have all my apps working. Ok, there is no carbon apps in the lot,
> there are some really old C code, of course, the game (nearly 1mio of C code
> if you count the math libs which is quite big because of ASM for multiple
> platforms) and a couple of Cocoa apps. I spent 1h putting my cross compiler
> for windows back on line and there we go.
> >
> >
> > I know the problem is really about Carbon, but Apple stated, you'll have
> to move to Cocoa. Again, as a young person, I took the move, and I recoded
> all my apps from Carbon to Cocoa as soon as I had my first Mac OS X CD. It
> was a pain, it was frustrating, sometimes, I just started from scratch, my
> libs would not compile... But I had time for it, I was discovering something
> new.
> >
> >
> > Now, many of you are older and "made" the computers as they are now.
> Again, your work is incredible, it's with all of you that we are were we are
> now. All the games you did, all of this.
> >
> >
> > But it's not because the game don't work anymore that it has been a lack
> of time. I truly think all things should come an go, this includes myself.
> Now it's time for Cocoa and OpenGL games. I encourage you to created new
> games using those technologies. You can, as Zack did for dark castle, revamp
> the game. I will feel immensely happy when the new dark castle comes out. I
> know the old one passed away, and I keep it's good memories with me.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm a bit sorry for this message, it was a pain to read, my english is far
> from perfect and I'm very bad at explaining things. I'm the kind of person
> overwhelmed by it's feeling and I could write a book to explain all of it.
> >
> >
> > As a final note, I encourage all of you to continue the hard work. I
> really hope we will all be together in the train and nobody will be left
> behind, I know it's utopic, but if I stopped being utopic, I would die right
> away.
> >
> >
> > I wish you the best to all of you.
> >
> >
> > From a little rookie.
> > --
> > Kuon
> >
> > "Don't press that button."
> > http://goyman.com/
> > Blog: http://kuon.goyman.com/
>
>
>
> --
> Reply,
> (r)(((???£   Ŝǖ"v@ˉ˘MśĦ ¢  ???)))(c)
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