[gameprogrammer] Re: Innovation and Creativity. Getting OT?

>  How many counter examples will it take to show you that this is just
wrong?
If you are getting personal, you are choosing the wrong examples.
>  Frank Whittle, a British military officer invented the jetengine.
Yes, Frank Whittle was a British Military Officer, he was an apprentice
before that and Knight after that. It doesn't change the "facts" he
developed the concept and prototype without help from the British
Military. He did it independent of Hans J. P. von Ohain, who also
invented the jet engine.
When Whittle went to the British military for funding they told him to
get lost, when WWII came along, they took his invention, gave it to the
Americans (GE) for implementation into airframes. Meanwhile, Ohain's
jets were shooting down Allied pilots.  After the war, the Brits
nationalized the jet engine told Whittle to ... and gave contracts to de
Havilland to develop jets.
Am I to infer the military did Frank Whittle a favor? Am I to infer that
the British military actually funded an invention?
>> In fact, since we started this with WAR and the ATOMIC BOMB, let me
emphasize the following. Most of the scientist that worked on the
Manhattan project were piece-nicks.
>  Really? You knew them? Where did you get that idea?
You are correct! I did not meet all of them. I had the privilege to
study physics under one of them, Dr. Robert. L Purbrick and he did his
Manhattan work in Chicago. I spent some years with him as an undergrad.
Of course he could have lied about working on the Manhattan project and
he could have lied about being against using the atomic bomb. On the
other hand if you review the Leo Szilard petition to the President of
the United States you will find his name as petitioner number 48. A copy
of the petition can be found at
http://www.dannen.com/decision/45-07-17.html.
The other Manhattan Project member I had the privilege to meet was
another Physicist named Richard Feynman. He too told me he did not like
war. So let me see, I met two out of hundred and read about many more.
And then there are the 69 in the Szilard petition. Statistically I would
say my statement stands.
>  The US-NAVY invented the nuclear  submarine. The US-DOD invented GPS.
And so on and on and on.=20
About the nuclear submarine. OK, if you want to call it an invention.
Personally, the submarine was invented during the civil war, and was
there a Navy then? The nuclear reactor we discussed.  Put the two
together and you can call it an invention. Not in my mind. At most it is
an innovation akin to putting a different motor in a car.
GPS is another story. I don't think there is much about GPS that I don't
know since I was one of the technical members involved in the
development, deployment, verification & validation, and evaluation of
the project. I gave up countless hours of sleep, 1 wife, 1 fellowship,
making sure that I contributed as much or more as the other team
members. I was after all one of the new members on my first job...had to
prove myself. Not anymore, many years later I don't have to prove myself
to anybody. But, hey let's finish this last post.
Incidentally, it was a math problem with the inversion of covariant
matrices in a computer that took me from my geekie little house in south
of Los Angeles to Pasadena north of Los Angeles to seek the help of
Richard Feynman at the California Institute of Technology.
>> Still it took William Shockley (Nobel Laureate) to invent the
transistor so IBM would get into the game of computing  machines.
>  IBM didn't have anything to do with inventing the transistor and IBM
Where in my sentence does it say IBM had anything to do with inventing
the transistor?
>  I remember being told that no women had ever been involved with the
building of the atomic bomb or with nuclear missiles.
No where did I distinguish between men and women, but at the risk of
starting something else, let me say that women are probably the better
side of the species in more ways than I will elaborate here. I will say
that man of the women I studied with and worked with were more
intelligent than the men and their post-hole-deep (PhD) diplomas.
>  I remember seeing the premier of the Soviet Union pounding on a table
with his shoe shouting "We will bury you!" at the top of his lungs
Strange, you don't look that old on your web site. By the comment, I
would assume you are near my age. Your hair looks good. Mine is mostly
grey on black...more grey than black.
>  When a nut cake like that has nuclear weapons, and is threatening
publicly to kill you... Well, you have to take it seriously no matter
how little you trust the military or the government.
I agree. Maybe that is why I volunteered and wound up outside of Saigon
during New Years 1968.  Although, I have only alluded to it, there are
reasons why I abhor war. I don't mean the stupid etymological wanna be
influences like the "war against terror" or the "war against drugs"!  I
mean real wars where children are given weapons and faced one against
the other...nation against nation.  War, where the politics only matter
for the politicians, not with the ground troops and the casualties,
civilian and/or military.
>  And I suppose you are now going to ignore the work on programming
languages done by the USAF and USNavy? Do you even know what they are?
Do you know why a USNAVY Admiral is considered to be one of the giants
of language design? I'll give you a hint, she was there when the term
"bug" was invented.
Yes, I am going to ignore that to some degree, USAF/USNAVY work on
language...except for the "bug" story ...there are too many tales and
RADM Hooper was in one, but not all the tales.
Personally, and I mean I was there in person, the idiocy of hearing
(expletive description deleted) Jean D. Ichbiah trying to convince me
that Ada rendezvous would not affect a jet flying  faster than mach 1
towards a mountain would not scare the sh__ out of a  pilot. Pull the
stick...sorry, I have a rendezvous pending, was a favorite argument of
mine. He came by to convince the Ada Joint Program Office about the
benefits of Ada. Unfortunate for him/me that I was one of the
consultants translating techie to English for the program office. Jovial
was before my time. Jovial was a solution language to a real time
problem. Ada was a language looking for applications (sounds like an ABC
thread I've been reading here). Naval languages are beyond my training
unless you consider COBOL which is a by-product from FOW-MATIC, but I
never liked COBOL. I also never looked into compilers A-0 or B-0. Were
they ever put into Mil-Std (Military Standards)?
I apologize if I offended you by not mentioning the honorable Rear
Admiral Grace Hooper creator of the A-0 compiler before Backus developed
FORTRAN. After all, I am trying to convince you that the military does
not invent. And you will notice if you read her history that she was
nearly NOT in the NAVY, was OUSTED from the NAVY and then was CALLED
BACK because she was the only (mathematician viewed as a lowly
accountant) accountant that could bring the Navy payroll back in line.
Personally, in hind sight I would have told the Navy what to do with its
"Anchors away" instead of retiring as the oldest admiral ever.=20
>> The faster the machine, the circuits, the microcode, the languages,
and the faster we like it. Harder, faster, pumping more electrons
through shorter and shorter delay paths with more application specific
Instruction Set Architectures as guides to development. Pride and the
need for fun push for more efficiencies which make faster machines.
> I can tell you have never actually done that. I have.
Really? What did you do? On my behalf, does being project
manager/project lead on a microprocessor R&D development count? Do I get
extra points if the microprocessor is immune to single event incidents?
Does that count? If the Instruction Set Architecture was the USAF
military 1750A, does that count? What is it that you have done? SDL is
dandy and you claim credit. I have no reason to doubt you and I won't go
on the attack here. But, for your information, I started as the
technical lead on a "Design for Testability" microprocessor and wound up
as "Project lead/manager" on a build for space computer. I also wrote a
lot of software various version of the same software to run on a variety
of operating systems. Does that count?  So what did you do besides SDL
that is higher, lower, or equivalent to my little project? (Okay, not my
project, the Air Force Project funded by under Secretary of the Air
Force for microelectronics.)
> Sure, it was fun. But, believe me. I did it for the stock options and
because I needed ajob. I do *this* for fun.
I don't get what was fun, you didn't say. You did what you did for stock
options, and I did what I did for patriotism. The think tank I worked in
for 15 years didn't give stock options, and some of the Program Office
colonels were more interested in retirement options, than making sure
their successor had a good program. I started working in the think tank
because I needed a job. I stayed there because I got to enjoy myself too
much and forgot to go out and look for stock options.
Okay, if you are doing this for fun, what is fun? Pushing War? Then I
think I have joined the wrong learning group. I learn by making
mistakes. I learn by listening to answers. Member of your list make
mistakes, are not afraid to ask for help. Other members of your list,
including you, provide answers, or at least point in the direction where
answers might be found. I like your members. I even like a lot of your
technical insight. I don't like war.
>  It would be fun to argue with you if you at least bothered to get
some fact straight.
Yeah! You are right. My parents, my teachers, and lately my doctors said
I should not engage in debate with persons who are not up to par. Okay,
you didn't catch the pun about Shwartzchild and black hole theory (or
string theory). Stringing along (another allusion to black holes and
multiple dimensions) you didn't get the pun about Tolkein and fantasy
(although the movies have been out for three years...then again maybe
you just ignored them).  Okay so I am trying to recover from
encephalopathy, but I haven't lost it all, yet. I still have enough
processing power to know when you say:
>  Frank Whittle, a British military officer invented the jetengine.
Does not translate into the military complex invented, funded, made
possible, or even gave credence to your point that the military complex
is out to help humankind with advancements in technology.
Now let me see if I can get this right:
>  Enough is enough, and this is too much.
>       Check your facts before you post
>               Bob Pendleton
Good advise. You should listen to yourself. This will be my last posting
on your list. It has been a long time since I got my hands (mind) dirty
trying to write good hard code. I joined this list for help. I learn by
seeing what others struggle with. I learn by seeing how other help those
who struggle. Meanwhile, I struggle to remember. Encephalopathy has made
me slow, not stupid. Because I am slow, the time I have to learn is
precious. This debate would have been fun, if it had not become
personal. But time is not something I have a lot of to waste on
romanticism, especially the romanticism of war.
Goodbye, Good luck, and may I see you healthy wealthy and wise on a
friendly basis on the sands of the outer banks-- someday. I use to go
out there to run during business trips (I write this assuming you are
the Bob Pendleton from Rowan County). I hope to go out there again, to
run, to think, but most of all to revel in the knowledge that I have
written a good game.

>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: gameprogrammer-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:gameprogrammer-
>  bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Pendleton
>  Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 4:05 PM
>  To: Gameprogrammer Mailing List
>  Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: Innovation and Creativity. Getting OT?
> =20
>  On Tue, 2004-05-04 at 14:50, Ray Gomez-Bravo wrote:
>  > Like it or not you guys are emphasizing my point, "the military is
a
>  > user" it does not invent, it does not create, it rarely innovates,
it
>  is
>  > only concerned with "What good is it? How can I use it?"
> =20
>  How many counter examples will it take to show you that this is just
>  wrong? Frank Whittle, a British military officer invented the jet
>  engine. Scientists working for the USDOD invented the Internet. The
>  USDOD invented the supersonic aircraft. The US-NAVY invented the
nuclear
>  submarine. The US-DOD invented GPS. And so on and on and on.
> =20
>  > The Mass Spectrometer has been around longer than 80 years (1886
>  > Goldstein) and probably back to the Bunsen burner.  Yes it was
improved
>  > during the Manhattan project.
>  > Least, I forget, yes the steam engine allegedly was invented
[Thomas
>  > Savery and Thomas Newcomen] to drain mines...I prefer to think it
was
>  > invented to keep miners from drowning and sold as something to keep
>  > mines open longer.
> =20
>  You don't get to decide what happened.
> =20
>  > James Watt improved on the Steam Engine and obtained
>  > several patents all for profit (frugal Scot).  Yeah the Navy later
used
>  > them for their submarines (users).
> =20
>  No, actually not. To best of my knowledge there was only one steam
>  powered submarine. Steam is not practical for use in submarines.
> =20
>  > While I am at it, let me state that inventors are never funded by
the
>  > military complex.
> =20
>  Take a look at the amount of money the the US-DOD spend on our
national
>  labs and on private research contracts. Then consider that that is
only
>  the public amount. The "black" budget is larger.
> =20
>  > At least I haven't found an example.
> =20
>  You haven't looked very hard.
> =20
>  > Inventors are
>  > usually seen as "Nuts", "Kooks", "Eccentrics", etc! But being seen
that
>  > way did not stop Thomas Edison from combining the improvement James
>  Watt
>  > made to the Steam Engine and the work of Michael Faraday (the
electric
>  > generator(1)) to produce the direct current that lit up a New York
>  > Street.
> =20
>  You have a very peculiar view of inventors. Most inventors work for
>  large companies or the military and live in nice comfortable houses.
> =20
>  > Westinghouse and Tesla modified how electricity is transmitted
without
>  > military money. Yet, the military is a big user of that precious
>  > commodity.
> =20
>  So what? Some inventors work for IBM, some work for them selves, some
>  work for the military. Some are military officers.
> =20
>  > In fact, since we started this with WAR and the ATOMIC BOMB, let me
>  > emphasize the following. Most of the scientist that worked on the
>  > Manhattan project were piece-nicks.
> =20
>  Really? You knew them? Where did you get that idea? Most of them, all
of
>  them, were perfectly happy with the idea of nuking Germany to stop
the
>  holocaust. A few of them had a little trouble with the idea of nuking
>  Japan. Most of them kept working in the military nuclear labs or for
>  companies funded entirely by military money for the rest of their
lives.
>  And, lets not forget that a bunch of them went off and invented the
>  Hydrogen bomb.
> =20
>  I remember being told that no women had ever been involved with the
>  building of the atomic bomb or with nuclear missiles. I checked it
out.
>  It was just revisionist history. I remember being told that all the
crew
>  of the nuclear bombers that attacked Japan had committed suicide out
of
>  guilt. Turned out not to be true.
> =20
>  > What they developed at Los Alamos
>  > was the ability to "Control a Nuclear Reaction".
> =20
>  Nope, that was developed at the University of Chicago. Some of the
>  people on that project moved to Los Alamos. You need to get your
facts
>  straight.
> =20
>  > That capability has two
>  > uses: let the reaction occur in milliseconds
> =20
>  Much less than milliseconds. More like a nanosecond.
> =20
>  > and destroy whatever is
>  > near conversion from matter to energy --OR-- let the reaction occur
>  over
>  > a period of years and convert the heat to electricity for peaceful
>  uses.
>  > Well, we know how the military likes it reactions controlled--fast
>  > furious and hot.  Not that many nuclear power plants around, except
on
>  > WAR vessels,
> =20
>  You need to check that. The economies of France, the Russian
Federation,
>  and japan are dependent on nuclear energy. Part of the power that
>  reaches my house comes from a nuclear power plant. Part also comes
from
>  wind turbines.
> =20
>  > on the tips of Multiple-reentry vehicles (many per ICBM) or
>  > stowed inside the bellies of ancient B-52s, newer B2s, or the
silent
>  > stealth fighter/bombers.
>  > What we see hear about the "threat of war" is simply the military
>  > complex excuse for abusing technology and providing game developers
>  with
>  > ideas for playing "Thermonuclear" games instead of a "nice game of
>  > chess."
> =20
>  Now that I might agree with. I remember seeing the premier of the
Soviet
>  Union pounding on a table with his shoe shouting "We will bury you!"
at
>  the top of his lungs. When a nut cake like that has nuclear weapons,
and
>  is threatening publicly to kill you... Well, you have to take it
>  seriously no matter how little you trust the military or the
government.
> =20
>  > You ask the question:
>  > >Why are PCs getting faster if all we did was to type reports on
the
>  > PCs?
>  > PC speed is simply driven by the corporate profit motive and the
> =20
>  Correct. But, you miss the point. If there was no demand there would
be
>  no profit to be made and hence not reason to build faster computers.
>  This is becoming a problem for Intel and AMD. The speed of their
>  computers is starting to get out in front of demand and they are
having
>  trouble selling their fastest computers.
> =20
>  > pride/curiosity of some mathematician (applied engineer of some
kind)
>  to
>  > improve on a technology.
> =20
>  Not with out the money.
> =20
>  > Think about it for a moment: Charles Babbage
>  > and the difference engine and then the Analytical Engine...[time
laps]
>  > invention of the "Fleming Valve" a diode, De Forest and his
invention
>  of
>  > the triode, and then J. Presper Eckert with partner John W. Mauchly
>  > building UNIVAC. Still it took William Shockley (Nobel Laureate) to
>  > invent the transistor so IBM would get into the game of computing
>  > machines.
> =20
>  IBM didn't have anything to do with inventing the transistor and IBM
was
>  building computers before the transistor was invented.
> =20
>  It would be fun to argue with you if you at least bothered to get
some
>  fact straight.
> =20
>  >  [Of course don't forget the contributions of Konrad Zuse who
>  > could not talk Hitler into financing his machine/research.]
>  > Incidentally, how many of you programmers have thanked Maurice
Wilkes?
>  > He is the man responsible for inventing microcode. It only took IBM
>  > slightly more than a decade to implement it. Mix transistors with
>  > microcode and you have some very fast computers (for the day) that
>  don't
>  > need men to run-around pulling patch cords.
> =20
>  Sorry, no. Again. Microcode makes computers slower. It was invented
to
>  make computers cheaper. Most importantly it allowed companies to
build
>  processors with a range of price/performance ratios that all
implement
>  the same instruction set. Microcode took a long time to catch on
because
>  it wasn't a very good technical idea, but it was great for create
>  marketing plans.
> =20
>  > Well there are armies of engineers in the employ of corporations
and
>  > some engineers destroy their marriages, get titled as Geeks while
they
>  > develop or improve on circuit design, logic design, and others
[David
>  > Olofson take a bow] who improve on the foundations laid down by
John
>  > Backus on programming languages. To improve on scanners,
tokenizers,
>  > syntax checkers, declaration checker, in fact to deal with the
tangled
>  > web of symbol tables takes dedication. It does not take military
>  > funding, but it would be nice.
> =20
>  And I suppose you are now going to ignore the work on programming
>  languages done by the USAF and USNavy? Do you even know what they
are?
>  Do you know why a USNAVY Admiral is considered to be one of the
giants
>  of language design? I'll give you a hint, she was there when the term
>  "bug" was invented.
> =20
>  > So do we only type reports? No we run simulations (lots and lots of
>  > math) for research and in our case to have fun and build games,
even
>  > though we don't always get paid...dedication?
> =20
>  *All* originally developed for the military.
> =20
>  > The faster the machine,
>  > the circuits, the microcode, the languages, the faster we like it.
>  > Harder, faster, pumping more electrons through shorter and shorter
>  delay
>  > paths with more application specific Instruction Set Architectures
as
>  > guides to development. Pride and the need for fun push for more
>  > efficiencies which make faster machines.
> =20
>  I can tell you have never actually done that. I have. Sure, it was
fun.
>  But, believe me. I did it for the stock options and because I needed
a
>  job. I do *this* for fun.
> =20
>  > Forgot to mention, in my past, --stripped out because something may
be
>  > classified or really boring--.
>  > Yes, I am a geek. Yes, I went through... Outside of the brilliant
work
>  > of a young mathematician named Shwartzchild or the converted
memories
>  of
>  > a soldier name Tolkien...
>  > Well, I stray too far a-field, so before I step into a black hole
>  > (computing simulations) of fantasy (simulate to long and you'll
think
>  > it=92s the real thing)...lets write code...and figure out where or
how =3D
>  > to
>  > find round-off answers, why conversions from Linux to VC.net are
>  > difficult, why C/C++ is slower than FORTRAN, how to build games
that
>  are
>  > better because we stand on the work of Giants who come before me
(us)
>  or
>  > who publish graphic libraries that we can use to speed up project
>  > deadlines (I give thanks to those programmers).
>  > Regards,
>  > P.S. in private we could look at the chain of wars, working
backwards,
>  > starting with Iraq and Afghanistan to see what technological
advances
>  > are being brought to you by Hallibur...a great idea for a game or
>  > consider a game called the death of Archimedes or the rise and fall
of
>  > the Archimedian screw.
>  >
>  > 1. induction through a magnetic field
> =20
>  Enough is enough, and this is too much.
> =20
>       Check your facts before you post
> =20
>               Bob Pendleton
> =20
>  >
>  > >-----Original Message-----
>  > >From: gameprogrammer-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:gameprogrammer-
>  > >bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alexander Whaley
>  > >Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 10:23 PM
>  > >To: gameprogrammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>  > >Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: Innovation and Creativity. Getting
OT?
>  > >
>  > >>But, no one every said that war was necessary for invention. If
that
>  > is
>  > >>what people think has been said, then there is a serious
>  > >>miscommunication going on. Let me state that one more time. No
one on
>  > >>this list has stated that war is necessary for invention. I hope
no
>  > one
>  > >>on the list *believes* that war is necessary for invention.
>  > >>
>  > >>As you said "necessity is the mother of invention". Strife
creates
>  > >>necessity and therefore stimulates invention. War is extreme
strife,
>  > and
>  > >>therefore stimulates extreme rates of invention.
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >
>  > >War isn't necessary for invention. But the military is a good
source
>  of
>  > >funds to push inventions forward.
>  > >
>  > >To take an example from my field of research: Analytical
Chemistry. I
>  > >work with something called a Mass Spectrometer. The technology is
>  about
>  > >80 years old. It seperates ions of different mass/charges in order
to
>  > >classify them. Then we can identify the different molecules making
up
>  a
>  > >mixture (big simplification there). While some people can say that
the
>  > >technolgy was being developed prior to WWII, we must not forget
that
>  > >during WWII the researchers on the Manhattan project were given
>  > >permission to melt all the silver in Fort Knox to build a massive
Mass
>  > >Spectrometer. It's purpose? To extract the correct Uranium (235)
>  > Isotope
>  > >to make a nuclear bomb.  Why the need? Because you must push its
>  > >abundance from about 0.7% to 99%. The technology was also used to
test
>  > >organic gas mixtures by the petroleum industry during the same
period.
>  > >
>  > >Would the Mass spectrometer have developed as fast without WWII?
Not
>  > >really. People need money to do research.
>  > >Would it have eventually reached its pervasiveness in the modern
>  world?
>  > >Yes.
>  > >Is it useful? There is not a single aspect of life that hasn't
been
>  > >affected by this technology. This goes from paint to the latest
>  medical
>  > >advances.
>  > >Have scientists recieved any Nobel prizes for this technology? I
can
>  > >remember at least 5 nobel winners.
>  > >
>  > >As you can see from this brief outline, the technology is useful.
It
>  > >received a huge boost from war simply because the military was
willing
>  > >to invest resources that the private sector were not. The army
isn't
>  > too
>  > >concerned about profits. It has a virtually unlimited source of
income
>  > >(OK, not unlimited, but it can count on having a budget each and
every
>  > >year until the world ends). Does the army have to "sell" its ideas
>  > >before it will get money to fund them? I don't really think so.
>  > >
>  > >The US has a ridiculous military budget. Is it all going to pay
for
>  the
>  > >troops? No. There are research groups that are funded by the US
>  > military
>  > >to develop ew technologies based on the Mass Spectrometer (e.g.
better
>  > >explosive detection systems). Are the groups honest in their
budgets?
>  > >No, they double their estimates (I know this is common practice
>  > >everywhere) and they fund other research that way.
>  > >
>  > >Finally: why do we have armies? Because politicians are afraid
that
>  > >otherwise the countries would be invaded. Case in point: take out
your
>  > >maps, look at South Afrcia, Look in the middle of it, you will
find
>  > >Lesotho. A completely independent country. Surrounded by South
Africa.
>  > >Now tell me, why would anyone want to invade them? They have
mountains
>  > >and water. If South Africa were to attack them, their army
wouldn't
>  > >really stand a chance (you don't get the latest weapons seling
water)
>  .
>  > >Yet they have an army.
>  > >
>  > >So, the threat of war can be seen as driving science forward. Why
did
>  > >the US and  Soviet Union want to get to space?  To provide the
world
>  > >with new horizons? Or because it is the "ultimate high ground"?
And
>  yet
>  > >we now benefit simply by having satelites that can reach the ends
of
>  > the
>  > >world and enable us to communicate, predict weather patterns, etc.
>  > Would
>  > >companies have invested the billions of dollars necessary for the
>  > >research???? For an unproven technology????
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >Besides: just look at the games out tere. How many people like to
play
>  > >First person shooters? Why is it so importnat to them? Why do so
many
>  > >programmers try to get cutting edge graphics and very high frame
>  rates?
>  > >Why are PCs getting faster if all we did was to type reports on
the
>  > PCs?
>  > >
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>  --
>  +--------------------------------------+
>  + Bob Pendleton: writer and programmer +
>  + email: Bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx             +
>  + blog:  www.Stonewolf.net             +
>  + web:   www.GameProgrammer.com        +
>  +--------------------------------------+

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