Re: [foxboro] Why are you staying with the DM? (was: 'Group' Visibility with DM)

Same issues here - price and time.

We have over 100 licenced DMs, and have no significant problems with existing 
display manager graphics.

Also, we still have a number of B1 workstations which don't support the 
current versions of FV.

Looking back, it would have been very expensive to change to Foxview, both in 
time and money:

*-- If we had changed several years ago, it would have been to v99.2 or 
v99.2.1 which were pretty stable and had fixed most of the problems with 
earlier versions.  We would have bought a 100 pack of licenses and trimmed a 
few where they weren't really needed.  We would have done all the graphics 
conversions and worked out all the minor problems, and gotten rid of the DM 
graphics.
*-- When we upgraded to I/A 6.4 we would have had to upgrade to FV V8, as 
older versions were not supported.  We would have had to purchase a new 100 
pack of licenses, because v8 was not a free upgrade.  Also, v8 said that any 
graphics that had been converted from DM (all of ours would have been) needed 
to be re-converted from the original DM graphic (issues with blinking color 
conversion).  Ours would have been long gone, so we would have had to load the 
DM graphics off old tapes, re-convert and re-fix.  All of our B and B1 
workstations would have been stuck at 6.2.1 or would have been migrated back 
to DM or would have had to be upgraded to D boxes, as FV v8 wasn't supported 
B1 workstations and didn't perform well on the B boxes (although not too bad 
on the 170mhz versions).
*-- When we upgraded to I/A 6.5.1 we would have had to upgrade to FV V9, as 
older versions were not supported.  We would have had to purchase a new 100 
pack of licenses, because v9 was not a free upgrade.  Looks like in this 
version we're got stability problems in FoxDraw on the Blade workstations -- 
have to save regularly because it crashes a lot -- brings back memories of FV 
v6.x.

We prefer to upgrade when there is a clear improvement in capability to 
justify the price, or when maintenance costs increase.  

Hardware:
*-- Upgrading CP10s and CP30s to CP40s and CP60s have been easy to justify -- 
huge improvement in capability that was immediately used.  
*-- Upgrading WP20s & WP30s to 51 series was pretty easy to justify -- 
increased reliability and performance (at the price of increased maintenance). 
*-- Upgrading A series APs and WPs to D and E boxes also was easy to justify, 
as the A boxes were at the limit of their performance.  
*-- Upgrading to V7.x and HPSN has let us get rid of slow CLANs and 
problematic FONBEs and reduce traffic on individual segments.
*-- Gradual upgrade of the B1 and B workstations has not resulted in much 
usable performance gain, but has been justifiable due to the increasing costs 
of maintaining the older workstations (CD/floppy/power supply/nvram 
failures).  Added benefit of freeing up space in crowded IE32s as we move to 
Blade workstations and connect directly to switches instead of using DNBI.

Software:
*-- Upgrading to the AIM* historian gave a great increase in capability and 
allowed the use of the OPC server.
*-- Upgrading I/A versions has allowed the use of new devices (FBM 223/224), 
although ongoing problems with PIDA blocks and self-tuning features are a 
concern.

Upgrading Display Manager to FoxView where most graphics are merely converted 
from DM provides little benefit to our users.  Creation of new graphics is 
much easier, maintenance of existing graphics is simpler, but our graphics are 
relatively stable, so these benefits are minor.  The movable overlays in v9 
and simpler scratchpad trend configuration are nice, but not compelling 
reasons to upgrade.  We still have issues with things that don't work as well 
as they did in DM too...  Finally, there is certainly the concern that by the 
time we finally move to Foxview (probably as part of the mesh network upgrade, 
as DM will not be supported by I/A v8.x) it will be nearly at the end of it's 
product life.

Regards,

Kevin FitzGerrell
Carter Holt Harvey
+64 27 460 9994

Quoting "Schouten, Frits JF" <Frits.Schouten@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

> We have here over 50 DMs, Alex.
> Have you any idea what Foxboro charges for the privilege to move to
> FoxView?
> I've just upgraded three workstations to Blades running vers 7.1.
> I believe that I could have chosen to start with either DM or FV as the
> default display on the new workstations.=20
> But here is the silly part. All additional DMs, migrated from the old
> workstations, needed to be re-licensed if I had chosen to make FV the
> default display.
> Our local Foxboro rep did check this with Foxboro Singapore and they
> were adamant that I had to repay for the display licenses.
> That would have cost us an additional NZ$30,000 or so to do that.
> On top of that all the engineering hours to 'fix' the new FV displays.
> 
> If it ain't broke, fix it until it is. I don't think so.
> 
> My 5cts worth.
> 
> Frits Schouten.=20
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Johnson, Alex P
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 July 2005 01:14
> To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [foxboro] Why are you staying with the DM? (was: 'Group'
> Visibility with DM)
> 
> 
> All,
> 
> John Smith's question raises another one. Why do our users stay with
> the
> DM?
> 
> We are interested in what would help people move off of the DM and to
> FV
> and
> I want to "hear" the reasons from a few users.
> 
> So, drop me a line on or off the list and let me know what the biggest
> barriers are to moving from the DM to FV.=20
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> =20
> Alex Johnson
> Invensys Systems, Inc.
> 10707 Haddington
> Houston, TX 77063
> +1 713 722 2859 (voice)
> +1 713 932 0222 (fax)
> +1 713 722 2700 (switchboard)
> alex.johnson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> I hope to see you at the Invensys Process System User Group meeting
> October
> 3-6 in Houston, TX -=20
> www.invensys.com/usergroup2005
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:foxboro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> Behalf Of John W. Smith
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 7:30 AM
> To: foxboro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [foxboro] 'Group' Visibility with DM
> 
> I've got a graphic where certain pieces of equipment need to
> 'disappear'
> when they are not being used and other pieces of equipment need to
> appear in
> their places when being used. This would have been a piece of cake in
> Foxview but I can't think of a good way to make it happen with Display
> Manager. I really don't want to set visibility on each line, arc,
> rectangle, etc. if I don't have to.
> Anybody got a better idea?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> John W. Smith
> Automation Engineer
> Global Automation Partners
> 
> --=20
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