Alex, I took some notes at the users conference from a presentation given by Pierre Pacarar in the pulp and paper breakout session on this very topic. I just looked over his powerpoint presentation on the users group CD. (Another reason for all of you to attend next year.) According to my notes, in conjunction with the CD, he felt justification for upgrades were: 1) Manning Reductions This was far and away his number one justification 2) Process Modifications Primarily for NEW HIGH VALUE products that could yield big returns 3) Chemical Savings If automation can save something quantifiable and the $$ is right ---------- Items below this line could be used to strengthen the justification but were not considered to be sufficient in and of themselves to get money for an upgrade. 4) Production Increases Many plants are not currently running at full capacity Extra global capacity drives margins down 5) Quality Goals Would this assist in meeting a quality target that affects sales 6) Obsolete Equipment Least usable reason in terms of ROI. Find spares and keep it working, use Ebay etc. There was a fair amount of talk after the presentation about the lack of compassion (not quite the right word, but close enough) for the mill workers, but as Pierre said, these are hard economic decisions and aren't based on feelings. Maybe if the North American industry picks up steam, as some economic indicators predict, money won't be so tight. But I think it's going to be a long time before the bean counters are willing to let go of the purse strings. Also, a lot of executives felt like they got taken in the Y2K hoopla, and equipment put in their plants for that reason had better last until Y3K. (Foxboro was in no way the worst in regards to Y2K, but you guys played the game too.) Regards, David Johnson in 2008 He's constitutionally qualified! _______________________________________________________________________ This mailing list is neither sponsored nor endorsed by Invensys Process Systems (formerly The Foxboro Company). Use the info you obtain here at your own risks. Read http://www.thecassandraproject.org/disclaimer.html foxboro mailing list: //www.freelists.org/list/foxboro to subscribe: mailto:foxboro-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=join to unsubscribe: mailto:foxboro-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=leave