[esnr] Re: drawbacks and modesty please

  • From: "Berrie Gerrits" <praktijkgerrits@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <esnr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:09:45 +0200

Baltic States Forum Feedback ReportHello Ineke,
sounds interesting what you've tried, could you elaborate on this method or 
give me some internet links? From what I read in your message I got the 
impression that maybe the most important cause for the drawbacks could be the 
intensity of treatment. In several cases with different methods (CES, APS) I 
found drawbacks in the beginning phase, but when frequency and intensity were 
lowered everything was ok. What I learned from it: always start slowly, then 
built up step by step. Maybe this procedure isn't possible with this new 
method, I don't know, I would like to know.

Met vriendelijke groet/All the best/Ciao,

Berrie Gerrits

Psychologenpraktijk Gerrits
Sloetstraat 14
6524 AS  Nijmegen
Tel: 024-3235053

Neurofeedback en QEEG gecertificeerd
BIG geregistreerd (GZ en psychotherapie)

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: h.a.baas 
  To: esnr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 2:29 PM
  Subject: [esnr] Re: drawbacks and modesty please

  dear collegues
  i'm happy the baltic forum was such a succesand that people felt very 
inspired after attending. I am especially happy that dr. schalow is going to be 
part of the movement
  this month january already i came across prof schalows ideas via internet and 
spoke to him about the possibilites of combining neurofeedback and his dynamic 
coordination therapy. he then was still unaware of neurofeedback and had his 
head elsewhere

  this whole concept of c.d.t. for me was very interesting. i am a 
psychologist, and tried to help a person very seriously damaged by T.B.I. with 
neurofeedback. Despite all the efforts that were made, she never profited in 
any way. And believe me we worked on it! 
  So together with a physiotherapist I thought that maybe I should start in a 
more simple way and that's were dynamic coordination therapy came in handy. In 
the end we did not go to prof. Schalow but his principles were worked out in 
Switserland in the Giger md machine. Before we bought this machine we went to 
Switserland to see how the machines were used in a physiotherapy practise, and 
everything seemed fine. we bought the machine and read the book by prof Schalow.

  However, although the principles are very interesting and clever, there is 
little talk of the drawbacks. After three weeks of intensive training my 
patient started suffering from a pain very similar to R.S.I. This is still 
going on since four weeks and has not stopped. I am not saying that we are now 
completely lost, the concept and ideas are really great, but they lack carefull 

  When the idea started of SAN  I was positive, especially as I was so
  fed up with american propaganda. Now I just hope the european branche will 
not go the same direction. I like enthousiasme, i am impressed by intelligent 
people, but i would like a bit more honesty about limitations, 


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Gruzelier, John H 
    To: esnr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 1:24 PM
    Subject: [esnr] Baltic States Forum Feedback Report

    Baltic Forum, Riga, Latvia, 2-3 July, 2004. 

    Society Prototype? 

    Professor Paulis Butlers hosted the first neurofeedback meeting in the 
Baltic States at the Riga Stradins University, where he is Assistant Professor 
of Medical Physics.  It is to his credit and considerable entrepreneurial 
skills and dedication to the field (he part funded the meeting himself) that he 
assembled participants from Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, and Russia, while I 
presented on behalf of the society. Around 60 people attended for the two day 

    The meeting represented to me a prototype of how the Society could develop, 
to embrace applied neuroscience and encourage cross fertilisation between 
clinical therapeutic and optimal performance approaches on the one hand, and 
basic science on the other.

    The meeting began with the current perspective on the brain mechanisms 
underpinning operant conditioning by Professor Liga Aberberga-Augskalne, who 
heads the Department of Neurophysiology.  This was an insightful introduction.  
This was followed by presentations by medical students from the Department of 
General Medicine who under the supervision of Paulis Butlers have examined how 
SMR training and suppressing theta in healthy volunteers also elevated alpha2, 
which is implicated in working memory, and shifted the alpha peak upwards.. 
These were mature presentations and I have encouraged them to submit the SMR 
paper for publication.  Further analysis may also shed light on learners versus 
nonlearners. The results contribute to the debate on specificity of bandwidth 

    After morning tea I presented our work with alpha/theta training, to 
include our latest findings in enhancing ballroom and Latin dance performance 
in competitive university dancers, and in elevating mood and well being in 
withdrawn students.  Professor Klonowski from the Polish Academy of Sciences, 
Warsaw then presented his advanced methods of EEG nonlinear complexity 
analysis, which incidentally could provide a new metric for neurofeedback 
training.  In identifying sleep stages in the EEG the procedures were superior 
to trained experts. To conclude the morning session Dr Helena Ciavko introduced 
stabilography methods from St Petersburg.  The participant steps on a bathroom 
scales type stand and a spectrum of movements is recorded.  There are clinical 
applications such as tremor and applications with dancers and sportsmen.  Again 
there are implications for biofeedback developments which Professor Butlers 
will consider.

    In the afternoon we were treated to a fascinating, inspiring and very 
moving introduction to the pathfinding 'coordination dynamics therapy' for 
spinal cord injury of Professor Giselher Schalow, formerly of Switzerland, but 
now based in Tatin, Estonia.  He outlined his highly creative theory and then 
proceeded to introduce us to two patients, one in a wheel chair and another a 
Norwegian youth who hit his head on the bottom of a river when diving in, and 
is a paraplegic as a result, but following very arduous training is now able to 
walk and even run with assistance.  We were given demonstrations of the 
approach, and alas time quickly ran out.  There is not space to go into this 
now, but the aim is to create new neurological connections, and it was clear to 
this psychophysiologist, how important topdown influences  were in forging 
these neuronal changes.  Clearly much potential can be derived from combining 
our techniques to achieve these goals.  It is food for thought that his highly 
innovative methods, which fly in the face of contemporary neurophysiological 
thinking, were not acceptable in Switzerland, and have found a receptive home 
in Estonia.  

    Perhaps our society could provide an important political role in science to 
counteract conservative constraints. 

    The next day was mainly devoted to the work of  Professor Dangole Zemaitye 
and colleagues.  Professor Zemaitye heads an Institute for Psychophysiology and 
Rehabilitation in Lithuania.  Apparently we first rubbed shoulders in Montreal 
at the founding meeting of the International Organisation of Psychophysiology 
in the early 1980s.  11 papers were presented  focussing on one aspect of their 
work, consisting of the manifold clinical implications of heart rate 
variability for diagnosis and rehabilitation.  Highly sophisticated methods of 
analysis were demonstrated with a clinical yield not available in conventional 
HRV analyses. This very expert clinical team would provide an ideal setting for 
a RCT of heart rate coherence training for cardiovascular disorders.  

    The forum ended with Professor Olegs Timms work in instating Swiss methods 
of neurostimulation and neural prosthesis with cochlear implants in Latvian 

    There was throughout the Forum a splendid spirit of openmindedness, and 
opportunities for neurofeedback and biofeedback were widely discussed.  
Professor Butlers is to be congratulated for his initiative in planning the 
meeting.  There is to be a followup via internet later in the year - see our 

    Offers from all the Baltic States to host a society meeting were received 
with enthusiasm, and I have received again a request today from Professor 
Schalow to host the next meeting in Tatin.  I would very much like us to go 

    We also took in the jazz festival, which just happened to on at the time, 
and we missed the opera festival by only a few days!  These are very beautiful 
cities, and I believe Tatin is an absolute jewel.  In Riga there is unspoiled 
architecture going back to the middle ages, art noveau turn of the century 
buildings, and a river with handsome bridges.  It is very green everywhere.  
Prices are affordable before the EU takes hold, as are flights booked in 
advance. The food is particularly excellent and cheap.

    How about the Baltic States for our next meeting! 

    John Gruzelier 

    Professor John Gruzelier 
    Division of Neuroscience & Psychological Medicine 
    Imperial College London 
    Charing Cross Campus 
    St Dunstan's Road 
    London W6 8RP 

    Phone 44 020 8 846 7386:  Fax 44 020 8 846 1670: 
    e-mail j.gruzelier@xxxxxxxx 
    Secretary: Mrs Ann Ebberson: Phone 44 020 8 846 7246 

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