[elky] Re: Monte - Lockup
- From: Robert Adams <elcam84@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:40:55 -0600
The trannys all lock up in 3rd and 4th. They don't lock up
in 2nd because the road speed the ecm locks up the converter at is always
higher than what is normal in 2nd unless you are at full throttle bu then
the ECM unlocks the converter anyway due to TPS voltage.
Even the burb locks up in 3rd you just don't usually feel it. Also
some trucks have a 3rd and 4th switch so the ECM can release the TCC between
shifts but in the case of your burb the ECM controls all shifts and doesn't
need those switches anymore.
The only thing the ECM does with the 4th gear switch in
regards to TCC is to force lockup in 4th at all times TPS is below a preset
threshold. Any other time the ecm is only looking at TPS and road speed for
when to lock up. Which always happen in 3rd and 4th.
The 2004r will not lockup in 1st because the TCC pressure feed is
off the 2nd gear apply. And it's 2nd that feeds it so it can be locked up in
3rd and not have a lag in pressure if it were fed off the 3rd(direct)
clutches.
I'd hook up a manual switch and if it works right
then the B&M box is bad. Wouldn't surprise me as their stuff isn't known to
be the best. Course that goes for allot of other aftermarket auto
electronics.I'm not a fan of their shift kits either cause they cut too many
corners and make them bang.
Robert Adams
On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Ray Buck <rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Lemme make sure of something. Are we talking about a TH700R4? That's
> what the diagram in figure 2 shows. I know exactly which spring it
> mentions, cuz I've had to mess with it in installing a shift kit. But as I
> recall, it's not in a TH200-4R. Been a long time, tho.
>
>
> The other issue is that of the ECM-controlled lockup in Figure 4:
>
>
>
> The ECU SHOULD decide when to apply the ground to pin D and the +12v to pin
> A. I'm not exactly sure how it's supposed to work in 2nd, 3rd and 4th,
> because under normal circumstances, it doesn't lock up until it gets into
> 4th. I know this is the way the TH700 works in my Burb. And it's
> controlled by that 4th gear switch.
>
> The way that diagram is drawn is ambiguous. We don't know whether the 4th
> gear switch opens in 4th or closes.
>
> Also, I don't know if you have the ECU connected to the harness. If you
> do, then all bets are off because there are probably multiple paths to
> ground for the solenoid (pin D) and possibly multiple 12v supplies to pin
> A.
>
> I'd do this. I'd disconnect the ECM's connector, run a fused 12v to pin A
> and on pin D, a wire to an N/O switch that has the other side going to
> ground. Then there are no variables. You should be able to lock/unlock the
> solenoid every time you make/break the switch connection. If this works,
> then the solenoid is fine as well as the converter. Then if you want to use
> the B&M device, start measuring voltages at pins A and D, and see if you
> have ground at pin B in or out of 4th. The lift otta be real handy for this
> so you can run it in gear with the wheels in the air and do the voltage
> measurements.
>
> If it works as advertised, there should be ground at D all the time and 12v
> at A whenever the box tells it to lock up....using whatever logic is uses.
> This is a "switched hot circuit", possibly a little safer than a "switched
> ground circuit" that can be triggered by any ground source...but it's harder
> to keep track of if there are multiple sources of "hot."
>
> hth,
>
> r
>
>
>
> On 12/4/2010 7:48 PM, John Christensen wrote:
>
> Here is the PDF of the insturctions:
> http://www.bmracing.com/bmracing/installation_instruction/9500475-08.pdf
>
> Maybe this will shed some light.
>
> Thanks all!
> JC
>
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Ray Buck <rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> It could depend on whether he had a normally open or normally closed 4th
>> gear switch, I'd think. If it was a normally closed switch, it could be
>> grounding the solenoid any time it's out of 1st gear, causing it to lock in
>> 2nd and 3rd, then unlock in 4th. Why it worked the first time and why the
>> switch didn't kill it is beyond me. I'd THINK that the switch should
>> prevent the +12v from being applied to the hot side of the solenoid. But if
>> it only prevents the kit from applying a ground, then the ground could be
>> coming from the 4th gear switch.
>>
>> r
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/4/2010 6:50 PM, Robert Adams wrote:
>>
>> Well you don't have the valve body controlled lockup.
>> I have never heard anything say anything about removing a spring in the tcc
>> valve train. Just one valve and it's a long spool valve in the valve body
>> which the TCC solenoid goes up against.
>>
>> As for the solenoid the TCC is a two wire on your
>> Monte.
>>
>>
>> If it feels like it's locking up press the
>> brake just enough to get the brake lights to come on. This will cut power to
>> the solenoid. If it's still locked up then there is something wrong
>> internally. Either a bad TCC solenoid worn TCC valve etc.
>>
>> With any TCC not unlocking with a 2004r you
>> can first try to replace the solenoid. If the problem is still there then
>> the TCC valve bore is worn and the solenoid can't exhaust enough fluid and
>> some of it ends up going to the TCC and causing it to lockup. Worn TCC
>> valves are very common on 2004rs and 700r4s. There is a replacement valve
>> with a teflon seal that fixes it. I think I still have one. Often a new TCC
>> solenoid bandaids the problem because it is made to exhaust more fluid than
>> the stock one.
>>
>> So... Many times the stock solenoid works just fine
>> it's actually the valve leaking too much fluid and the new design solenoid
>> fixes it (sort of).
>>
>>
>> Robert Adams
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 7:32 PM, John Christensen <johncgg@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> Chris sent the lockup kit for the Monte and I installed it today. Tom
>>> came over and we took it for a test drive.
>>>
>>> At first it seemed to work as advertised. It locked up at the speed when
>>> the red LED turned to green. After driving a bit, and coming to a stop, it
>>> seemed to stay locked up. Then it was jumping in and out of lock. Even at
>>> 2nd and third gear. Something isn't right with it. There is an on/off switch
>>> on the unit. Pushing that to off didn't unlock it. What was odd, was that it
>>> would be unlocked, then lock in the lower gear. So it isn't stuck on, it is
>>> getting a completed circuit somehow, when it is not intended.
>>>
>>> I am thinking there are several things that could be causing this. In the
>>> instructions, it talks about a spring that needs to be removed in the valve
>>> body. This is for early models (before 89) that have the valve body
>>> controlled lock up. Anyone know about this? In the text, it mentions: Custom
>>> transmissioninstallations utilizing early models with valve body controlled
>>> lockup speed may requite some modification to operate correctly. locate the
>>> converter clutch valve train in the valve boday. Deactivate the converter
>>> clutch shift valve by trmoving the spring holding the valve train in the OFF
>>> position. This will allow the converter clutch shift valve to move to the ON
>>> position, and ensure that control pressure is always available at the
>>> converter clutch apply valve after the first gear shift. It may also be
>>> necessary to remove the pan to identify which kind of solenoid and wiring
>>> sceme is used on your particular unit.
>>>
>>> It also says there are 2 types of solenoids, one wire and 2 wire. The one
>>> wire needs only the + to go to the pin A. Where A is + and D is ground (I
>>> grounded the D pin). So maybe if i lift the ground on the case, it will
>>> work. Looks like I need to get in the pan to find out. I may have a picture
>>> of it when it was open and upside down on the bench. I'll have to check.
>>>
>>> I spoke to Ray on the phone, and he was suggesting that the 4th gear
>>> switch internally could be a type that is either normally open, or normally
>>> closed. Because the kit has a wire on the 4 pin connector that goes to a
>>> ground on the case, I am wondering if that is a conflict, and may be causing
>>> it to engage in the lower gears. I haven't tried it without the ground wire
>>> hooked up.
>>>
>>> I was unable to get together with B&M tech support. It's Monday through
>>> Friday. Next stop is the tech support on the web site. Tom offerd the lift
>>> at the school on Sunday, but I want to research it before tearing in to the
>>> pan.
>>>
>>> At least I know the lockup works. I don't think it is sticking, because
>>> it is sort of randomly engaging in 2nd and third when it has already
>>> disengaged. It is also locking with the LED showing red. So Ray may have
>>> something there on the grounding conflict.
>>>
>>> Just wanted to run this past everyone. I have wired the same kit on the
>>> 350C of the El Camino before going back to computer control, and it worked
>>> flawlessly for years. I have a feeling it is the ground on the case, or the
>>> spring in the valve body. I'll get it sorted out eventually.
>>>
>>> That was the automotive therapy for today.
>>>
>>> JC
>>> ---
>>> John Christensen
>>> 1984 El Camino "Elkenstein" 350 TBI
>>> NECOA #042 http://www.myelcamino.net
>>> Saint Charles, IL
>>> ---
>>> John Christensen
>>> 1984 El Camino "Elkenstein" 350 TBI
>>> NECOA #042 http://www.myelcamino.net
>>> Saint Charles, IL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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