[duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

  • From: "George Bell" <george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 19:38:30 +0100

I'm on your side here, Peter.  SR1 will come soon enough.

George.

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
Sullivan
Sent: 09 May 2006 17:36
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

George,

I will look into this.

But it is increasingly unlikely that anything will be done
about it before the release of DBT 10.6.  We are already
about a month behind our original schedule, there are about
a year's worth of important fixes already in the software,
and customers waiting for these.

- Peter 

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George
Bell
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:33 PM
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

Peter,

I fear we have perhaps stepped into a veritable mine field
with this.

I've just done a quick experiment with a couple of Word's
Headings.  DBT seems to ignore Bold and Italics, not just
for the entire heading, but for individual words selected
and changed "for emphasis", such is the second line of the
attached.

George. 

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
Sullivan
Sent: 09 May 2006 17:24
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

George,

I haven't gone back to visit David's file since receiving
some extra information from him this morning.

But what you propose does make some sense as a possible
source of the trouble.

The goal of DBT's importer is to indicate emphasis, not to
show typographical convention.

Consider the case of a level-two heading style in Word,
where text set in the style is automatically italicized.
The italics should not normally be shown in braille (at
least not per the rules with which I'm most familiar)
because the italics are a typographical convention, not an
indication of emphasis.  Instead, the braille should show
un-emphasized text set as a level-two heading.

But further consider that the user wants to italicize text
within the line
-- to indicate a word or two that are particularly
emphasized within the heading.  The print convention for
this is to revert the emphasized words to the non-italicized
form.  DBT attempts to indicate the emphasis then by looking
for places where the text is in a typographical form
distinct from what is defined for the paragraph style in
which it is defined.

All of which is to say that the code is attempting to be be
pretty "smart"
in cases that we considered during the design phase of the
Word importer; and it may simply be getting tripped up on
itself when it encounters the case that David brought to our
attention.

- Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George
Bell
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:15 PM
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets

Hi David and Peter,
 
This appears to be one of those nasty, nasty Wordisms that
has driven us bonkers for ages.
 
If you look very closely at the Bold version of the file,
you will see that ONLY the letter is italicised.
 

 
Now highlight (A) and click on the Italic Icon.
 

 
Note how the A is no longer Italicised.
 
I could be wrong, but in removing the Italics and Bold (per
David's non-bold file), I suspect what Word is actually
doing, is to put an "Invert Character Attribute" code in
(which perhaps DBT is not picking up), rather than
"removing" the attribute itself.
 
Then again, as the colloquialism goes, I could be "away with
the fairies".
 
George.

________________________________

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David
Spybey
Sent: 09 May 2006 16:06
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Strange file containing brackets




Peter

Most of the material that I prepare starts off as a print
file for our partially sighted pupils and it is usually in
large print and bold. I sometimes forget unbold the whole
document before translating it hence the bold version of the
file I got the strange results with. As a rule I would
expect all the bold and other unnecessary emphasis marking
to be removed as it is not helpful to the Braille reader.

In the file I sent I can see that the capital A is in
italics but I would still not expect to get what is
happening but rather

7.,a7

Whilst I might prefer it to have no italic sign at all I
would not expect DBT to understand my preference if I am
perverse enough to ask it to translate a file that I have
provided with italics in it!

There is clearly something peculiar about the files I sent
but I cannot see what it is. 

David Spybey


-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
Sullivan
Sent: 08 May 2006 19:36
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
documents

David,

Thanks for sending the .tex files (off-list).  As you
mentioned, these

aren't really necessary to my analysis, because the problem
shows up also

(or perhaps exclusively) when importing from Word.

I'm now puzzled about what you want in the translation in
this case.  You

mention that you would expect (A) to be: 7;,a7

Does that mean that you expect emphasis markings to be
ignored in this case?

- Peter 

-----Original Message-----

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

Behalf Of David Spybey

Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:34 AM

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
documents

Peter

The file that caused the problem is attached. However I need
to amend what I

have said slightly.

I used Word2Tex, as I usually do, to change the file into a
.tex file that

SN will read. I did not check the SN file before using DBT
and got the

result I mentioned. Looking more closely at the WORD
original the A was

italic not the closing bracket. In SN this came out as the
opening bracket

in text the A and the closing bracket in Math and hence the
result I got in

DBT. I should have spotted this fact so apologies for giving
a false

impression of the problem.

I was going into SN because of all the mathematics that was
in the WORD file

in MathType and the route I follow gets that into reasonable
braille

mathematics. However, if you ignore the mathematics issues
and just got

straight into DBT from the files I have attached the The
results of going

straight into DBT 

The version with (A) in bold gives 

7..,a.'.17.'

And the version witgh (A) in non bold gives 

.7.,a.17.'

Whereas I would expect (A) to be

7;,a7

as happens in other files. So there must be something rather
peculiar about

the two WORD files that I have attached. I have looked at
them but cannot

see what would cause such peculiar results.

David





-----Original Message-----

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

Behalf Of Peter Sullivan

Sent: 04 May 2006 16:56

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
documents

David,

Do you have a sample file in the format from which you
started (e.g. Word,

Scientific Notebook, text, or HTML)?

- Peter 

-----Original Message-----

From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On

Behalf Of David Spybey

Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 3:02 AM

To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
documents

Peter

It is strange how mistakes show up errors!

I have just had

(A)

translated as

7,a>

rather than 7,a7

I could not understand why until I realised that the closing
bracket was in

italics by mistake. However I am not sure why DBT translated
this as it did.

David Spybey

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* * * <<Brackets file.doc>> <<Brackets file non bold.doc>> 



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