[duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles

  • To: <duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:58:50 -0500

Well I am not Joanie, but I will answer affirmative. Smart quotes and
apostrophes have been our #1 or #2 issue (depending on who you ask).
Smart quotes (double quotes) were a problem in the previous (10.5)
release, but do not seem to be a problem with this beta. Apostrophes
have continued to be a major problem for us, however.

+-------------------------------------------+
|            Michael Surato                 |
|      Resource Center for Persons          |
|           with Disabilities               |
|      Michigan State University            |
|            120 Bessey Hall                |
|        East Lansing, MI 48824             |
| Voice: (517) 353-9643 Fax: (517) 432-3191 |
+-------------------------------------------+ 
   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:52 PM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> 
> Joanie,
> 
> You mean that the smart apostrophes pasted in from Word have 
> been your #2 issue?
> 
> Are double quotes a problem in this context too?
> 
> - Peter 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:24 PM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> 
> This is exactly our experience. Aside from the licensing 
> issues that we have had with our client/server environment, 
> this quandary is our biggest pain point with Duxbury.
> 
> +-------------------------------------------+
> |            Michael Surato                 |
> |      Resource Center for Persons          |
> |           with Disabilities               |
> |      Michigan State University            |
> |            120 Bessey Hall                |
> |        East Lansing, MI 48824             |
> | Voice: (517) 353-9643 Fax: (517) 432-3191 |
> +-------------------------------------------+ 
>    
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:13 PM
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > 
> > Joanie,
> > 
> > You then might run into the other problem with "smart" 
> > apostrophes.  DBT apparently manages these better when reading the 
> > Word file instead of the clipboard.
> > 
> > Another approach you might explore is using Word's 
> Autoformat feature, 
> > available in the Format menu.  It's supposed to help clean up 
> > "illogical"
> > style applications and other formatting in a document.  
> I've only done 
> > a very little bit of testing, but did find that it produces 
> a document 
> > that should be well-managed by DBT.
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joanmarie Diggs
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:04 PM
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > 
> > Removing *all* styles is easy:  Select all the text in the Word 
> > document, copy it, and then paste it into a new Duxbury print 
> > document. <smile> I do this when a Word document is so overly 
> > formatted (or illogically formatted) that's it's easier to 
> start from 
> > scratch.
> > 
> > But I like the idea of being able to pick and choose on the fly.
> > 
> > Take care.
> > Joanie
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:37 AM
> > > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > > 
> > > Micheal,
> > > 
> > > I've put this on file too, with reference #1588, the full text of 
> > > which is
> > > this:
> > > 
> > > The simplest useful approach would actual strip only 
> linear styles, 
> > > presumably leaving [l] at the start or end of each such paragraph.
> > > A more useful approach would prompt the user to remove linear, 
> > > nestable, or both kinds of styles.
> > > Finally, we could present a full dialog, with all
> > > *referenced* styles (even
> > > undefined ones) listed.  The user could "Select All",
> > "Select None",
> > > "Select Linear", "Select Nestable", or select/deselect individual 
> > > entries before clicking "Remove Styles". It might be nice
> > also to have
> > > a place to specify what is done in place of where linear
> > styles have
> > > been removed (e.g. [p] versus [l]).
> > > 
> > > You're right to suggest that we won't be getting to that third 
> > > approach in this beta round.  New UI that involves more
> > than a string
> > > or two is something that we consider only in extreme cases,
> > because it
> > > is difficult for our localizers to keep pace when we may be
> > shipping
> > > soon.
> > > 
> > > The first suggestion is something that we will have to
> > reflect upon.  
> > > Here too, we're struggling with defects in existing 
> features at the 
> > > moment, so it isn't possible for me to predict what new
> > ones will make
> > > it into the software.
> > > 
> > > But I do appreciate you bringing this to my attention.
> > > 
> > > - Peter
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Surato
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:47 AM
> > > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > > 
> > > I heartily concur. In the long run, the flexibility to
> > remove any type
> > > of style would be a great feature. If that is not 
> possible in this 
> > > release, then I would at least be satisfied with removing
> > the linear
> > > styles.
> > > 
> > > +-------------------------------------------+
> > > |            Michael Surato                 |
> > > |      Resource Center for Persons          |
> > > |           with Disabilities               |
> > > |      Michigan State University            |
> > > |            120 Bessey Hall                |
> > > |        East Lansing, MI 48824             |
> > > | Voice: (517) 353-9643 Fax: (517) 432-3191 |
> > > +-------------------------------------------+
> > >   
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > 
> > >   From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don Breda
> > >   Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:41 AM
> > >   To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >   Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   Hi Peter.
> > >   
> > >   I have had customers request a feature to remove all
> > styles in a
> > > document. Frankly I think if you were to press them on it y
> > you would
> > > realize they probably mean all linear styles but if all 
> the options 
> > > were present and selectable as you suggest (ie. remove
> > linear, nested,
> > > or both or
> > > (all) is probably more accurate then customers could choose
> > and what
> > > with the undo feature present no choice would be catestroaphic.
> > >   
> > >   Don
> > >   
> > >   On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:46:27 -0500, Peter Sullivan wrote:
> > >   
> > >   >Michael,
> > >   >
> > >   >There is no such option.
> > >   >
> > >   >However, you can, perhaps, effect something of the
> > same thing if
> > you
> > > only
> > >   >mean to remove linear stlyes -- what most people call
> > paragraph
> > > styles.
> > >   >
> > >   >Try this:
> > >   >- Choose Edit, Select All to highlight the whole document.
> > >   >- Choose Layout, Join Styles to put all the text into
> > one set of
> > > style tags.
> > >   >- Choose Edit, View Codes (if necessary) to put the
> > document in
> > > coded view.
> > >   >- Push Control-Home to move to the beginning of the document.
> > >   >- Now use the Arrow keys and backspace or delete to remove the 
> > > document's
> > >   >only start style tag for a linear style. The corresponding end
> > style
> > > key
> > >   >should be removed automatically.
> > >   >
> > >   >Nestable styles -- what most people call character
> > styles -- will
> > > remain
> > >   >even after this procedure.
> > >   >
> > >   >It takes a bit more skill that what you suggest, so
> > we'll keep your
> > 
> > > request
> > >   >in mind. And I'm not sure that it does all you want either.
> > > Will you also
> > >   >want to clear nestable styles? If you had your ideal feature 
> > > implemented,
> > >   >would it allow you to strip only linear or only
> > nestable or both
> > > kinds of
> > >   >styles? Would it present a list of styles referenced in the
> > document
> > > for
> > >   >you to select those you want cleared?
> > >   >
> > >   >- Peter 
> > >   >
> > >   >-----Original Message-----
> > >   >From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > >   >Behalf Of Michael Surato
> > >   >Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 4:29 PM
> > >   >To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >   >Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > >   >
> > >   >Along these same lines, is there an option to remove all styles
> > from
> > > the
> > >   >document? This would be similar to Word's "clear formatting"
> > >   >instruction. Alternatively, (perhaps a better option)
> > would be to
> > > have the
> > >   >"Word Importer..." dialog under global settings to
> > have the option
> > > to ignore
> > >   >Word styles. We are often looking to not use any
> > styles but have
> > > Word files
> > >   >as a source and this would be a good option for us.
> > >   >
> > >   >+-------------------------------------------+
> > >   >| Michael Surato |
> > >   >| Resource Center for Persons |
> > >   >| with Disabilities |
> > >   >| Michigan State University |
> > >   >| 120 Bessey Hall |
> > >   >| East Lansing, MI 48824 |
> > >   >| Voice: (517) 353-9643 Fax: (517) 432-3191 |
> > >   >+-------------------------------------------+ 
> > >   > 
> > >   >
> > >   >> -----Original Message-----
> > >   >> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >   >> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joanmarie
> > Diggs
> > >   >> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 2:08 PM
> > >   >> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >   >> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> Hmmmm.... Now I'm pondering. :)
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> The case you mention is not quite what I had in
> > mind. If a user
> > > knows
> > >   >> how to enter the style to find as a style tag, what is the 
> > > likelihood
> > >   >> that he/she will then turn around enter the
> > replacement style as
> > > plain
> > >   >> text?
> > >   >> Granted, I've seen stranger user behavior, but my
> > gut is telling
> > > me
> > >   >> that this scenario isn't going to happen all that
> > often. So **for
> > > 
> > >   >> this
> > >   >> scenario** I'd say clean up the error message.
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> The scenario I'm envisioning is a bit different. What if you 
> > >   >> imported a document from Word and, due to the
> > default formatting
> > > in
> > >   >> Word, wound up with text in Duxbury that was
> > formatted with the
> > >   >> paragraph style, but really should be formatted as
> > text separated
> > 
> > > by a
> > >   >> new line? In that instance, you could replace the
> > paragraph style
> > > 
> > >   >> with the code [l] or [<]. So the user gets into the
> > find/replace
> > >   >> dialog, manually enters the style tag, manually
> > enters the code,
> > > and
> > >   >> then sees the replace stylename checkbox and has to decide
> > whether
> > > or
> > >   >> not to check it. A reasonable thing, I think, for the user to
> > > 
> > >   >> conclude is that he/she is indeed replacing a stylename:
> > >   >> The stylename <para.> is being replaced with the code [l]. 
> > >   >> That might not be what the intent of that checkbox
> > is, but the
> > > user
> > >   >> will check it all the same. :) Even if you clean up the error
> > > 
> > >   >> message, our hypothetical user is not going to
> > understand what
> > the
> > >   >> problem is. So in this case I'd vote for either
> > option 1 (just do
> > 
> > > the
> > >   >> replace) or option 2 (are you sure you want to
> > replace your style
> > 
> > > with
> > >   >> this code).
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> --Joanie
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> -----Original Message-----
> > >   >> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >   >> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> > Peter Sullivan
> > >   >> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:19 PM
> > >   >> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >   >> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> Joanie,
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> I've been pondering this a bit.
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> The behavior that you're now seeing -- apart from
> > the ugliness of
> > 
> > > the
> > >   >> error message -- is at least somewhat intentional.
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> What I wonder is, when a user types in a "style name to find"
> > > 
> > >   >> as a style tag, and a "style name with which to replace it" 
> > >   >> as plain text, then checks "replace stylename", just
> > what is the
> > >   >> intent? Is the user intending to replace style tags in the 
> > > document
> > >   >> with plain text? With "replace stylename"
> > >   >> checked, that's never what DBT will do.
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> So we deliberately stopped short of handling the
> > "mixed entry
> > > method"
> > >   >> case that you cite, for fear that we'd otherwise be doing 
> > > something
> > >   >> that the user wasn't expecting. Perhaps with Undo available, 
> > > that's
> > >   >> not such a big deal.
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> Anyhow, I have some choices for you (and others who
> > may care to
> > >   >> express an opinion). Shall we:
> > >   >> 1. Just go ahead and replace the one style with the other,
> > despite
> > >   >> the odd data entry,
> > >   >> 2. Warn the user about the apparent inconsistency,
> > and go ahead
> > > with
> > >   >> the replacement if the user confirms it, or
> > >   >> 3. Just clean up the error message?
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> - Peter
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> -----Original Message-----
> > >   >> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >   >> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joanmarie
> > Diggs
> > >   >> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:23 PM
> > >   >> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >   >> Subject: [duxhelp] Finding and replacing styles
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> Hi all. With respect to this fix:
> > >   >> ---
> > >   >> DBT's Find and Replace dialogs are more flexible about 
> > > understanding a
> > >   >> user's intent to search for or replace styles. It is
> > now possible
> > 
> > > to
> > >   >> use Control-< to enter the style as a tag and check the 
> > > "Find/Replace
> > >   >> style"
> > >   >> checkbox.
> > >   >> ---
> > >   >> If you: 
> > >   >> 1. manually insert a style with Control-< 2. put a
> > non-style in
> > > the
> > >   >> replace with edit box 3. check the replace stylename checkbox
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> You still get the error dialog. The error message isn't very 
> > > pretty
> > >   >> either.
> > >   >> Here is the screen shot of the dialog that appeared
> > when I tried
> > > to
> > >   >> replace the para style with the linefeed code --
> > both of which
> > > were
> > >   >> manually entered.
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> And for the benefit of screen reader users, here is the text 
> > > (which I
> > >   >> would read with all punctuation turned on -- also note the 
> > >   >> non-printing character that appears after each open quotation
> > > -- JAWS 
> > >   >> says it's "character 28")
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> There is no style defined with the name "es~para.. 
> > > Are you sure
> > > you 
> > >   >> want to replace all occurrences of the style
> > "es~para. with "l?
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> Take care.
> > >   >> Joanie
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> 
> > >   >> 
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