[duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles

  • From: "Peter Sullivan" <peter@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:52:19 -0500

Joanie,

You mean that the smart apostrophes pasted in from Word have been your #2
issue?

Are double quotes a problem in this context too?

- Peter 

-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:24 PM
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles

This is exactly our experience. Aside from the licensing issues that we have
had with our client/server environment, this quandary is our biggest pain
point with Duxbury.

+-------------------------------------------+
|            Michael Surato                 |
|      Resource Center for Persons          |
|           with Disabilities               |
|      Michigan State University            |
|            120 Bessey Hall                |
|        East Lansing, MI 48824             |
| Voice: (517) 353-9643 Fax: (517) 432-3191 |
+-------------------------------------------+ 
   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:13 PM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> 
> Joanie,
> 
> You then might run into the other problem with "smart" 
> apostrophes.  DBT apparently manages these better when reading the 
> Word file instead of the clipboard.
> 
> Another approach you might explore is using Word's Autoformat feature, 
> available in the Format menu.  It's supposed to help clean up 
> "illogical"
> style applications and other formatting in a document.  I've only done 
> a very little bit of testing, but did find that it produces a document 
> that should be well-managed by DBT.
> 
> - Peter
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joanmarie Diggs
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:04 PM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> 
> Removing *all* styles is easy:  Select all the text in the Word 
> document, copy it, and then paste it into a new Duxbury print 
> document. <smile> I do this when a Word document is so overly 
> formatted (or illogically formatted) that's it's easier to start from 
> scratch.
> 
> But I like the idea of being able to pick and choose on the fly.
> 
> Take care.
> Joanie
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:37 AM
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > 
> > Micheal,
> > 
> > I've put this on file too, with reference #1588, the full text of 
> > which is
> > this:
> > 
> > The simplest useful approach would actual strip only linear styles, 
> > presumably leaving [l] at the start or end of each such paragraph.
> > A more useful approach would prompt the user to remove linear, 
> > nestable, or both kinds of styles.
> > Finally, we could present a full dialog, with all
> > *referenced* styles (even
> > undefined ones) listed.  The user could "Select All",
> "Select None",
> > "Select Linear", "Select Nestable", or select/deselect individual 
> > entries before clicking "Remove Styles". It might be nice
> also to have
> > a place to specify what is done in place of where linear
> styles have
> > been removed (e.g. [p] versus [l]).
> > 
> > You're right to suggest that we won't be getting to that third 
> > approach in this beta round.  New UI that involves more
> than a string
> > or two is something that we consider only in extreme cases,
> because it
> > is difficult for our localizers to keep pace when we may be
> shipping
> > soon.
> > 
> > The first suggestion is something that we will have to
> reflect upon.  
> > Here too, we're struggling with defects in existing features at the 
> > moment, so it isn't possible for me to predict what new
> ones will make
> > it into the software.
> > 
> > But I do appreciate you bringing this to my attention.
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Surato
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:47 AM
> > To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> > 
> > I heartily concur. In the long run, the flexibility to
> remove any type
> > of style would be a great feature. If that is not possible in this 
> > release, then I would at least be satisfied with removing
> the linear
> > styles.
> > 
> > +-------------------------------------------+
> > |            Michael Surato                 |
> > |      Resource Center for Persons          |
> > |           with Disabilities               |
> > |      Michigan State University            |
> > |            120 Bessey Hall                |
> > |        East Lansing, MI 48824             |
> > | Voice: (517) 353-9643 Fax: (517) 432-3191 |
> > +-------------------------------------------+
> >   
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > 
> >     From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don Breda
> >     Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:41 AM
> >     To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> >     
> >     
> >     Hi Peter.
> >     
> >     I have had customers request a feature to remove all
> styles in a
> > document. Frankly I think if you were to press them on it y
> you would
> > realize they probably mean all linear styles but if all the options 
> > were present and selectable as you suggest (ie. remove
> linear, nested,
> > or both or
> > (all) is probably more accurate then customers could choose
> and what
> > with the undo feature present no choice would be catestroaphic.
> >     
> >     Don
> >     
> >     On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:46:27 -0500, Peter Sullivan wrote:
> >     
> >     >Michael,
> >     >
> >     >There is no such option.
> >     >
> >     >However, you can, perhaps, effect something of the
> same thing if
> you
> > only
> >     >mean to remove linear stlyes -- what most people call
> paragraph
> > styles.
> >     >
> >     >Try this:
> >     >- Choose Edit, Select All to highlight the whole document.
> >     >- Choose Layout, Join Styles to put all the text into
> one set of
> > style tags.
> >     >- Choose Edit, View Codes (if necessary) to put the
> document in
> > coded view.
> >     >- Push Control-Home to move to the beginning of the document.
> >     >- Now use the Arrow keys and backspace or delete to remove the 
> > document's
> >     >only start style tag for a linear style. The corresponding end
> style
> > key
> >     >should be removed automatically.
> >     >
> >     >Nestable styles -- what most people call character
> styles -- will
> > remain
> >     >even after this procedure.
> >     >
> >     >It takes a bit more skill that what you suggest, so
> we'll keep your
> 
> > request
> >     >in mind. And I'm not sure that it does all you want either.
> > Will you also
> >     >want to clear nestable styles? If you had your ideal feature 
> > implemented,
> >     >would it allow you to strip only linear or only
> nestable or both
> > kinds of
> >     >styles? Would it present a list of styles referenced in the
> document
> > for
> >     >you to select those you want cleared?
> >     >
> >     >- Peter 
> >     >
> >     >-----Original Message-----
> >     >From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> >     >Behalf Of Michael Surato
> >     >Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 4:29 PM
> >     >To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     >Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> >     >
> >     >Along these same lines, is there an option to remove all styles
> from
> > the
> >     >document? This would be similar to Word's "clear formatting"
> >     >instruction. Alternatively, (perhaps a better option)
> would be to
> > have the
> >     >"Word Importer..." dialog under global settings to
> have the option
> > to ignore
> >     >Word styles. We are often looking to not use any
> styles but have
> > Word files
> >     >as a source and this would be a good option for us.
> >     >
> >     >+-------------------------------------------+
> >     >| Michael Surato |
> >     >| Resource Center for Persons |
> >     >| with Disabilities |
> >     >| Michigan State University |
> >     >| 120 Bessey Hall |
> >     >| East Lansing, MI 48824 |
> >     >| Voice: (517) 353-9643 Fax: (517) 432-3191 |
> >     >+-------------------------------------------+ 
> >     > 
> >     >
> >     >> -----Original Message-----
> >     >> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     >> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joanmarie
> Diggs
> >     >> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 2:08 PM
> >     >> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     >> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> >     >> 
> >     >> Hmmmm.... Now I'm pondering. :)
> >     >> 
> >     >> The case you mention is not quite what I had in
> mind. If a user
> > knows
> >     >> how to enter the style to find as a style tag, what is the 
> > likelihood
> >     >> that he/she will then turn around enter the
> replacement style as
> > plain
> >     >> text?
> >     >> Granted, I've seen stranger user behavior, but my
> gut is telling
> > me
> >     >> that this scenario isn't going to happen all that
> often. So **for
> > 
> >     >> this
> >     >> scenario** I'd say clean up the error message.
> >     >> 
> >     >> The scenario I'm envisioning is a bit different. What if you 
> >     >> imported a document from Word and, due to the
> default formatting
> > in
> >     >> Word, wound up with text in Duxbury that was
> formatted with the
> >     >> paragraph style, but really should be formatted as
> text separated
> 
> > by a
> >     >> new line? In that instance, you could replace the
> paragraph style
> > 
> >     >> with the code [l] or [<]. So the user gets into the
> find/replace
> >     >> dialog, manually enters the style tag, manually
> enters the code,
> > and
> >     >> then sees the replace stylename checkbox and has to decide
> whether
> > or
> >     >> not to check it. A reasonable thing, I think, for the user to
> > 
> >     >> conclude is that he/she is indeed replacing a stylename:
> >     >> The stylename <para.> is being replaced with the code [l]. 
> >     >> That might not be what the intent of that checkbox
> is, but the
> > user
> >     >> will check it all the same. :) Even if you clean up the error
> > 
> >     >> message, our hypothetical user is not going to
> understand what
> the
> >     >> problem is. So in this case I'd vote for either
> option 1 (just do
> 
> > the
> >     >> replace) or option 2 (are you sure you want to
> replace your style
> 
> > with
> >     >> this code).
> >     >> 
> >     >> --Joanie
> >     >> 
> >     >> -----Original Message-----
> >     >> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     >> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Peter Sullivan
> >     >> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:19 PM
> >     >> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     >> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Finding and replacing styles
> >     >> 
> >     >> Joanie,
> >     >> 
> >     >> I've been pondering this a bit.
> >     >> 
> >     >> The behavior that you're now seeing -- apart from
> the ugliness of
> 
> > the
> >     >> error message -- is at least somewhat intentional.
> >     >> 
> >     >> What I wonder is, when a user types in a "style name to find"
> > 
> >     >> as a style tag, and a "style name with which to replace it" 
> >     >> as plain text, then checks "replace stylename", just
> what is the
> >     >> intent? Is the user intending to replace style tags in the 
> > document
> >     >> with plain text? With "replace stylename"
> >     >> checked, that's never what DBT will do.
> >     >> 
> >     >> So we deliberately stopped short of handling the
> "mixed entry
> > method"
> >     >> case that you cite, for fear that we'd otherwise be doing 
> > something
> >     >> that the user wasn't expecting. Perhaps with Undo available, 
> > that's
> >     >> not such a big deal.
> >     >> 
> >     >> Anyhow, I have some choices for you (and others who
> may care to
> >     >> express an opinion). Shall we:
> >     >> 1. Just go ahead and replace the one style with the other,
> despite
> >     >> the odd data entry,
> >     >> 2. Warn the user about the apparent inconsistency,
> and go ahead
> > with
> >     >> the replacement if the user confirms it, or
> >     >> 3. Just clean up the error message?
> >     >> 
> >     >> - Peter
> >     >> 
> >     >> -----Original Message-----
> >     >> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     >> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joanmarie
> Diggs
> >     >> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:23 PM
> >     >> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     >> Subject: [duxhelp] Finding and replacing styles
> >     >> 
> >     >> Hi all. With respect to this fix:
> >     >> ---
> >     >> DBT's Find and Replace dialogs are more flexible about 
> > understanding a
> >     >> user's intent to search for or replace styles. It is
> now possible
> 
> > to
> >     >> use Control-< to enter the style as a tag and check the 
> > "Find/Replace
> >     >> style"
> >     >> checkbox.
> >     >> ---
> >     >> If you: 
> >     >> 1. manually insert a style with Control-< 2. put a
> non-style in
> > the
> >     >> replace with edit box 3. check the replace stylename checkbox
> >     >> 
> >     >> You still get the error dialog. The error message isn't very 
> > pretty
> >     >> either.
> >     >> Here is the screen shot of the dialog that appeared
> when I tried
> > to
> >     >> replace the para style with the linefeed code --
> both of which
> > were
> >     >> manually entered.
> >     >> 
> >     >> 
> >     >> 
> >     >> And for the benefit of screen reader users, here is the text 
> > (which I
> >     >> would read with all punctuation turned on -- also note the 
> >     >> non-printing character that appears after each open quotation
> > -- JAWS 
> >     >> says it's "character 28")
> >     >> 
> >     >> There is no style defined with the name "es~para.. 
> > Are you sure
> > you 
> >     >> want to replace all occurrences of the style
> "es~para. with "l?
> >     >> 
> >     >> Take care.
> >     >> Joanie
> >     >> 
> >     >> 
> >     >> 
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