[drivingpairs] Re: drivingpairs Digest V3 #71
- From: "Fletcher, Mary Ann" <MFletche@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:43:50 -0400
I would love to have expert commentary on me and my pair of miniature =
mules. Would someone tell me how to get the video on line after I make =
it using my VHS machine.=20
Mary Ann Fletcher
Professor=20
University of Miami School of Medicine
Miami, FL 33101
305-243-6288 (O)
305-975-3450 (C)
305-243-4674 (FAX)
mfletche@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager [mailto:ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 3:04 AM
To: drivingpairs digest users
Subject: drivingpairs Digest V3 #71
drivingpairs Digest Tue, 13 Apr 2004 Volume: 03 Issue: 071
In This Issue:
[drivingpairs] pairs ground driving
[drivingpairs] baby pictures
[drivingpairs] my point
[drivingpairs] Re: 2 Questions/Traces &rein rings /lines and
[drivingpairs] What could be the problem?
[drivingpairs] Online Pairs Driving Lessons from DrivingPair
[drivingpairs] Re: What could be the problem?
[drivingpairs] bitting
[drivingpairs] "Book Learning"
[drivingpairs] Ground driving pair
[drivingpairs] another test
[drivingpairs] Re: Online Pairs Driving Lessons from Driving
[drivingpairs] Southern Pines CDE Results
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 04:04:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [drivingpairs] pairs ground driving
From: "Anya Getman" <agetman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
What we did with the yearling and the 24 yr old (2 quick release trailer
ties):
while older horse was hitched:
http://www.haremhills.com/site/contentimage/quissy/driverview.jpg
just ground driving:
http://www.haremhills.com/site/contentimage/quissy/aspair1.jpg
It also helps, with a mouthy yearling, to loosely connect his head to =
the
outside somewhere, so he doesn't drive the older horse nuts chewing on =
her
...
------------------------------
From: "Helen Roeder" <helen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] baby pictures
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 07:47:49 -0500
All you new "mamas" don't forget to take pictures of you "babies" and =
=3D
post them on the web site, so we can all enjoy them.
Helen
Helen Roeder
Sunshine Pony Farm,
El Hasa Sport Ponies and
www.drivingpairs.com
------------------------------
From: "Helen Roeder" <helen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] my point
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 07:52:10 -0500
Whooops! My point about tying horses was not at all about cruelty at =
=3D
all. Sorry if I was misunderstood. =3D20
Helen Roeder
Sunshine Pony Farm,
El Hasa Sport Ponies and
www.drivingpairs.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:18:22 -0700
From: Robert & Linda Smith <Lrsmith@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: 2 Questions/Traces &rein rings /lines and =
stuff
I've really enjoyed reading and learning from all these ideas on the=20
pair that is pulling apart, since my husband's pair of minis started=20
doing that quite badly all of a sudden. We tried switching sides,=20
changing lengths of reins, changing the pole and its crab part on the=20
front of the pole, etc. Nothing seemed to help, so we just gave up for=20
awhile and he is doing the CDEs and ADTs with the better of the pair as=20
a single (and doing very well actually).
My question right now is: Nobody has addressed the bit. I remember=20
hearing once that the bits for a pair must be spot welded so that the=20
non-pinch side pieces won't be able to swivel or twist outwards (if that =
is a clear description of it?) Our bits are still not welded and they do =
move. They are regular half-cheek, mullen mouth snaffles with the=20
non-pinch sides. I wonder if you all think that could be part of our=20
problem?
Linda in Arizona
http://myweb.cableone.net/lrsmith - if you want to see the pair in =
action
Hzlax@xxxxxxx wrote:
>I find it GREAT and quite excellent if somebody gets the books and =
studies=20
>them and works his way through. Very good and the way to go, but let =
us also=20
>understand that there is only so much that we can learn from reading =
books and=20
>posts on the internet. Not all stuff can be self taught, so similar as =
with the=20
>previous post. Some time ago I made a tongue in cheek post - I think on =
CD-L,=20
>the other list, about my "flying plans" where I tried to illustrate =
that we=20
>don't
>
> =20
>
------------------------------
From: "Helen Roeder" <helen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] What could be the problem?
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:03:02 -0500
Bits: fixed cheek or not? There are many things that could create =3D
problems with a pair. Years ago someone told me that driving a pair was =
=3D
twice as much fun as driving a single, but could be ten times the =3D
problems. =3D20
In order to figure out what the problem is, one would have to watch and =
=3D
study what the horses are doing. Even then, it could be hit and miss. =
=3D
It could be something as simple as one horse not wanting to drive with =
=3D
that particular other horse. Maybe the bit isn't actually pinching, =
=3D
but the horse may be anticipating that it will, because it's been =3D
pinched at some point in the past. Could be his teeth. When a horse =
=3D
reacts, he's trying to tell us something. Our job is to figure =3D
translate what he's saying.
While our list could give you ideas of what the problem could be, no one =
=3D
can really find the solution but the person who is working the horses =
=3D
day after day. Try having someone video tape you while working the =3D
horses. Then go back and study the tape to see if you can figure out =
=3D
what might be the problem. If you think it might be the bit, then =3D
change the bit and see what happens. That's the only way you'll know =
=3D
for sure if it's the bit. Don't forget, each horse is an individual. =
=3D
If you solve a problem with one horse, don't assume the same solution =
=3D
for all the horses. Good luck.
Helen
Helen Roeder
Sunshine Pony Farm,
El Hasa Sport Ponies and
www.drivingpairs.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:25:22 -0400
From: noel jones <gedeckt@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Online Pairs Driving Lessons from =
DrivingPairs.com
Helen and I, co-moderators of drivingpairs.com are pleased to announce=20
an experiment, a possible new service to our list members, driving=20
master classes on line.
This is particularly apropos with our current discussion of pairs =
leaning.
We will post your driving video and moderate a discussion and=20
suggestions from the group.
You may request that your video be submitted anonymously, if you prefer.
The first one is free...who is going to be first?
Contact us directly for instructions on how to submit your video.
noel jones, aago
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 07:31:10 -0700
From: Robert & Linda Smith <Lrsmith@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: What could be the problem?
So there is no fast rule that the bits for a pair have to have fixed =
cheeks?
Linda
Helen Roeder wrote:
>Bits: fixed cheek or not? There are many things that could create =
=3D
>problems with a pair. Years ago someone told me that driving a pair =
was =3D
>twice as much fun as driving a single, but could be ten times the =3D
>problems. =3D20
>
>In order to figure out what the problem is, one would have to watch and =
=3D
>study what the horses are doing. Even then, it could be hit and miss. =
=3D
> It could be something as simple as one horse not wanting to drive with =
=3D
>that particular other horse. Maybe the bit isn't actually pinching, =
=3D
>but the horse may be anticipating that it will, because it's been =3D
>pinched at some point in the past. Could be his teeth. When a horse =
=3D
>reacts, he's trying to tell us something. Our job is to figure =3D
>translate what he's saying.
>
>While our list could give you ideas of what the problem could be, no =
one =3D
>can really find the solution but the person who is working the horses =
=3D
>day after day. Try having someone video tape you while working the =
=3D
>horses. Then go back and study the tape to see if you can figure out =
=3D
>what might be the problem. If you think it might be the bit, then =3D
>change the bit and see what happens. That's the only way you'll know =
=3D
>for sure if it's the bit. Don't forget, each horse is an individual. =
=3D
>If you solve a problem with one horse, don't assume the same solution =
=3D
>for all the horses. Good luck.
>
>Helen
>
>
> Helen Roeder
>Sunshine Pony Farm,
> El Hasa Sport Ponies and
>www.drivingpairs.com
>
>_________________________________________________________
>To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:=20
>http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
>`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>
>
> =20
>
------------------------------
From: "Helen Roeder" <helen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] bitting
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:22:43 -0500
Of course not. The only fast rules are in the ADS rule book for =3D
competing. Even then, unless you're aiming at higher levels of =3D
competition, bend the rules. (Sorry, Hardy.......) Use whatever works =
=3D
best for your particular horses. The object is to make the horses =3D
comfortable and safe, so they will work willingly. =3D20
Helen=3D20
So there is no fast rule that the bits for a pair have to have fixed =3D
cheeks?
Linda
Helen Roeder wrote:
>Bits: fixed cheek or not? =20
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: kathy robertson <goodhors@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] "Book Learning"
I would strongly agree with Hardy, that you can't
learn to do as good a job driving horses from a book,
as you can by combining books and lessons. There are
just too many variables, adjustments, that you can not
mechanically figure. Light touch, half-halts? Not
the same for all horses and drivers. =20
Working with a live person, having them see you in
action, can help immensely. Even with good photos,
you can't learn ALL details of harnessing, releasing
of reins for turns. Couple of pointers from them, get
you on the right path to easier methods.
I have to believe almost every method of horse Pair
driving, adjustments, training, has been tried
someplace. Why have to stumble again thru such a long
road to learn? Speed things up with proven methods,
live trainers, so you don't have to unlearn bad
habits, unsafe methods. =20
Hardy's airplane pilot training post was very funny,
but really scary! My brother trains pilots. He makes
sure learners do a lot of other stuff WAY BEFORE they
get behind the wheels of the LITTLE planes!! They
have simulators, where the pilots practice many
situations in flying. Lots of them kill themselves on
the simulators!
Something not mentioned with the leaning pair, was
pole length. Maybe I missed that part. Traditional
vehicle poles are very long. MUST be long to ease the
work on horses. Modern vehicles, using metal yokes
and short poles, can not be measured the same way, to
correctly fit the horses. While a marathon pole, with
the yoke end is good for straight bodied horses, it
must also fit correctly, be wide enough, with harness
that is compatible. Evener and singletree width can
make a difference too. We see a lot of very short
poles with crabs, on wagons, carriages. It actually
FORCES animals into the pole, makes them travel
crooked. Very tiring to horse, hard on body. Then
the good horse is getting puked by his non-pulling
buddy, driver has not a clue. Just working him to
death, doing the whole job. Driver may hate that
horse, since he is "pulling on me" all the time!=20
Driver LOVES the "quiet" but lazy horse.
Small ponies that are driven, can be very one-sided.
Never ridden to flex both ways and often are always
used on "their favorite" side. My grampa had a right
and left side horse in his Pairs, never traded them.=20
Sometimes horses are trying to hold carriage back
while still going forward. Don't know how to hold a
load on hills, never learned well! You have to teach
downhill hold-the-carriage, as well as uphill PULL.=20
Flatlander horses just get confused. Maybe their
carriage had brakes before? Are ponies really going
forward? Or just staying ahead of carriage? There
are just so many things, you can't diagnose online!
I no longer care for fixed sided bits. Ridden or
driven. When you use fixed sides, you move the whole
piece with any signal. There is no finesse because
you have no legs to aid you, weight shifts in the
saddle, used all at once. Whip just doesn't cut it
here, can't do the same job signaling horse. If I
have a horse who went pretty good in a fixed side,
solid bit, I can improve him a LOT by going to swivel
sides, loose rings. Smaller tweaks, greater finesse
with reins, weight under saddle. Support one side,
leave other one alone, whole bit is not moving.
My old pony ran away with me in a fixed sided bit,
her riding bit!! Just tucked her head to her chest,
and went running down the road. I couldn't stop her
in the first two jumps. I also could not turn her,
could not get any side pull leverage at all, even
using a 4" shank. Good reins, but not enough angle to
bend her around. This was all started when she
spooked using an open bridle driving. I believed some
of those be kinder stories, leave off blinkers so she
could see!! She was an experienced driving pony, lots
of mileage, several years driving. Saw too much that
day.
Traditional old bits, riding or Coaching styles,
fixed sides, evolved for their time. Swivel sides
were expensive, wore out sooner. Didn't have metal
selection, tooling available now. People drove to
places, straight down the road, straight horses,
square corners. Few people did anything like dressage
when driving, didn't need bending, flex we demand now
of horses.
=20
We have rubber bit rings on all the bits, riding and
driving, to prevent any accidental pinching, of bit
sides or curbstraps. Also on snaffles, to prevent
pinches in loose rings or hinges of D-sides. I see
lots of skin pinches between the upper side of curb
bit to bridle, and curbstrap tightening. Happens on
all kinds of curb bits, ridden and driven.
I like the swivel side that allows me to "lead"
horse around a circle. It only opens the side I want
to go in, so he is not guessing signals, especially
driven. Other side of bit is not jamming him in the
face with uneven pull or twist of bit in mouth,
pulling harder on one rein
Our horses go to bit school, are trained in what
responses we want over training time. I am NOT going
to hold them up during the drive or ride. They have
to hold themselves up, balance their bodies. If you
want to "hold them back" they will LET you hold them
up. That turns into WORK for you, weighs a ton, very
tiring. Horses get as hard-mouthed as you want to let
them be. Bigger, harder, nasty bit only works for a
while, pain responses get dull. No FUN in any of that
kind of driving. Education of the mouth is a better
solution, refuse to hold horse up.
Lot of great improvements in bit design, over the
last 10-15 years. Use them after studying how they
work. Don't just jump in buying poor designs. We do
not use copper or sweet iron in bits anymore. I would
not put either metal in my own mouth. A horse who is
slobbering foam is not necessesarily using the bit
correctly. Body reaction to metal, does not make him
soft mouthed. Name of trainer on bit is not a
warrenty of bit being good design. Do your homework
on mechanics of mouth and angles, leverage action of
bits. Make informed choices.
Kathy Robertson =20
=20
=09
=09
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway=20
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
------------------------------
From: Hzlax@xxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:15:10 EDT
Subject: [drivingpairs] Ground driving pair
I have no problems using a connector strap in front, same as with=20
four-in-hand leaders (but only in CDE's, it's a no-no in pleasure =
driving !) as that=20
helps a little to keep it all together, and know that some people also =
tie=20
together behind. Personally I don't find the hind end important, as when =
they want to=20
swing out to face each other or such things, I just drive forward and =
things=20
straighten out. The problem becomes more when trying to rein back, but =
also=20
there, I try to get it accomplished without tying together in the back. =
Just=20
keep everything very steady and very calm. Just train standing there =
relaxed, and=20
only once everything is calm and relaxed at the halt, then I very =
carefuly=20
ask for just one step back, keeping a whip carefully on the outside, if =
one=20
wants to swing out. Relaxation is the key.
Good luck
Hardy=20
------------------------------
From: "Helen Roeder" <helen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] another test
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:09:51 -0500
This is a test.....and no one will fail. Just trying to fix my emailer =
=3D
so all the little signs down show up. Sorry for the intrusion.
Helen Roeder
Sunshine Pony Farm,
El Hasa Sport Ponies and
www.drivingpairs.com
------------------------------
From: "Suzan Sallstrom" <sunhilow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Online Pairs Driving Lessons from =
DrivingPairs.com
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:35:47 -0400
This is a wonderful idea, I would love to be first but don't have a =
video of
my pair. I have been driving them single for the time being and won't =
hook
them as a pair until the spring CDE's are over. I drive a pair of =
Morgans,
one is at the advanced level and the other one just barely at prelim. I =
DO
need help driving them as a pair.
Suzan Sallstrom
Sunhillow Studio Fine Equine Art
sunhilow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:05:55 -0400
From: Mike Arnold <ma@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Southern Pines CDE Results
For those that like to follow online - the results for the 2004=20
Southern Pines CDE will be available on the Economy Farm web site:=20
http://economyfarm.com. Let me know if you have any problems or=20
questions.
Special thanks to Scott & Deborah Padgett for hosting this.
in peace,
Mike Arnold.
webgator (or is that webwhip?)
------------------------------
End of drivingpairs Digest V3 #71
*********************************
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