[drivingpairs] (auto-response) Re: drivingpairs Digest V2 #32
- From: afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- To: drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: 6 Feb 2003 23:10:37 -0800
I am pleased to announce that I have joined my brother
in our new company - FOSTER REAL ESTATE SERVICES. I
still concentrate on residential real estate and
Murray handles the commercial market. We look forward
to assisting with your real estate needs in the
future! My phone number is still (901)335-2403 and my
new e-mail address is afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Thanks,
Andrew L. Foster
Foster Real Estate Services
1770 Kirby Parkway #109
Memphis TN 38138
----------- Original message follows -----------
-- Attached file included as plaintext by Ecartis --
Return-Path: <drivingpairs-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Delivered-To: coldwellbanker.com%afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Received: (cpmta 22382 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2003 23:10:01 -0800
Received: from 206.53.239.180 (HELO turing.freelists.org)
by smtp.c007.snv.cp.net (209.228.33.237) with SMTP; 6 Feb 2003 23:10:01 -0800
X-Received: 7 Feb 2003 07:10:01 GMT
Received: from turing.(none) (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP
id 44B86390B44; Fri, 7 Feb 2003 02:06:17 -0500 (EST)
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list drivingpairs); Fri, 07 Feb 2003 02:06:14
-0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 02:06:14 -0500 (EST)
From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: drivingpairs digest users <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: drivingpairs Digest V2 #32
Precedence: normal
Message-Id: <20030207070617.44B86390B44@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
drivingpairs Digest Thu, 06 Feb 2003 Volume: 02 Issue: 032
In This Issue:
[drivingpairs] Stallions in work
[drivingpairs] stallion pairs
[drivingpairs] Driving stallions
[drivingpairs] Re: (auto-response) Re: drivingpairs Digest V
[drivingpairs] Re: (auto-response) Re: drivingpairs Digest V
[drivingpairs] Stallion Pairs
[drivingpairs] Stallion pairs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 5 Feb 2003 23:14:08 -0800
Subject: [drivingpairs] (auto-response) Re: drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
From: afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I am pleased to announce that I have joined my brother
in our new company - FOSTER REAL ESTATE SERVICES. I
still concentrate on residential real estate and
Murray handles the commercial market. We look forward
to assisting with your real estate needs in the
future! My phone number is still (901)335-2403 and my
new e-mail address is afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Thanks,
Andrew L. Foster
Foster Real Estate Services
1770 Kirby Parkway #109
Memphis TN 38138
----------- Original message follows -----------
-- Attached file included as plaintext by Ecartis --
Return-Path: <drivingpairs-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Delivered-To: coldwellbanker.com%afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Received: (cpmta 28035 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2003 23:13:44 -0800
Received: from 206.53.239.180 (HELO turing.freelists.org)
by smtp.c007.snv.cp.net (209.228.33.237) with SMTP; 5 Feb 2003 23:13:44 -0800
X-Received: 6 Feb 2003 07:13:44 GMT
Received: from turing.(none) (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP
id BDE8B390BBE; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 02:05:42 -0500 (EST)
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list drivingpairs); Thu, 06 Feb 2003 02:05:39
-0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 02:05:39 -0500 (EST)
From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: drivingpairs digest users <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
Precedence: normal
Message-Id: <20030206070542.BDE8B390BBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
drivingpairs Digest Wed, 05 Feb 2003 Volume: 02 Issue: 031
In This Issue:
[drivingpairs] Re: Stallion Pairs
[drivingpairs] Re: stallion pairs??
[drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
[drivingpairs] Stallion Use-long
[drivingpairs] Calender-Breast Collar
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:19:43 -0500
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
From: Robyn Cuffey <robyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
My Eagle has a steel pole that pins to the carriage but hangs on a
spring to adjust the height. It has a crab (SP?) end that pulls the neck
straps sideways from the collars. I was told this is a drop pole because
it can be released on to the ground. I have always been concerned about
it pulling the horses sideways. Whenever I go to clinics or talk to more
experienced pair drivers they tell me to keep my pole straps VERY short
but that pulls more sideways. How do you prevent the horses from going
crooked or prevent rubs on their shoulders. I am hoping to do
competitive driving this summer and am already concerned about rubs. The
spring does allow the pole to bounce
and I would think that could sore up the top of their necks. It actually
bounces more when they walk.
My first down the road pair experience was with an old wooden drop pole
with a yoke. (only my second time driving pair) 50 yards from my
driveway one horse started to turn, the yoke "ring" broke (it was old
and the safety strap was torn) and down it went. All would have been
well if I had pulled back on both reins but I thought I should stop the
turning horse by pulling the rein on that side and I managed to pull the
off horse so sideways he fell over the pole in a heap in the road. Not
good. Since then I have avoided any leather attachment setup.
Robyn
On Sunday, February 2, 2003, at 01:03 PM, kathy robertson wrote:
>
> I am going to say no to converting your present pole.
>
> There are three general classes of neck yoke poles.
> Each works on the same principles, a yoke between
> horses, but poles are NOT interchangable between the
> styles of yokes.
>
> The first is the marathon pole for marathon vehicles.
> Usually spring loaded to carry itself on the front of
> vehicle. No weight on horses necks. Short pole made
> of metal tubing, so yoke ends at horses chest.
> Nothing sticking beyond the pole. Fits MODERN
> vehicles, usually mostly metal ones.
>
> Second is the drop pole used on buggies. Very light,
> and pretty long. This is the one used with light
> weight, American vehicles, buggy types, surreys. Name
> comes from being able to drop to the ground when not
> harnessed. Yoke must hold pole up when driving. Pole
> fastened to vehicle front with bolt, clip pins, which
> allow an up and down motion for horse movement and
> gentle hills in a road. Yoke leather tab slides over
> the end of pole. Pole end has a cap with a raised
> collar about 10" back to prevent yoke from running up
> the pole. Pole should have a safety strap to fasten
> around yoke. Strap is to prevent yoke from falling
> off the end, by accident. Yoke should stay on until
> safety strap is unfastened! Pole is longer than a
> marathon pole would be, plus extra length beyond the
> yoke. This allows horses to be hitched comfortably,
> not tightly but not very loose either. Traces should
> be tight before pushing yoke. Bigger horses would
> need longer pole to not kick vehicle when trotting
> fast. Yoke attachment plus straps to collar, will
> allow more slack/play, than marathon yoke clips. I
> would recommend using neck collars, not breast collars
> for this kind of yoke. The horses will have to
> support the pole weight the whole time they are
> hitched. A neck collar is wider to spread load on a
> bigger neck area. Evener with singletrees is how
> traces attach at vehicle.
>
> Third type of neck yoke is the draft horse hitch,
> usually seen on big wagons. That neck yoke is large,
> thick with a big metal ring to fit over the heavy
> dropped pole used on wagons. Pole end sticks out of
> neck yoke ring a fair length, to prevent yoke coming
> off by accident. There is a stopper on the bottom of
> pole to prevent yoke running up the pole. Extra
> length of pole gives horses control of vehicle as well
> as preventing accidental yoke coming off. Draft horse
> style hitching is usually pretty loose, since they
> have a long time in harness. Don't want to sore the
> horse, but does give more room before horses and yoke
> get in draft. Extra pole length beyond yoke stopper
> is REALLY needed. Also may be used to put more horses
> out front, like a four or six, so additional divider
> pole and eveners would be hung off the pole's end on
> wagon. Again, neck collars are recommended. Wagon
> poles are VERY heavy. Pole weight is on horse necks
> the whole time horses are hitched.
>
> Both the dropped pole and wagon poles must have extra
> pole length beyond yoke or safety strap to prevent
> yoke from coming off. Too long of traces allow horses
> out too far. They can push yoke off the end of pole.
> Removing the yoke will allow the pole to DROP
> instantly. It WILL spear into the ground, stopping
> vehicle, usually creating a bad accident, since horse
> have NOT stopped. Pole might slide on pavement. I
> don't want to picture it!
>
> Fixed polesstick out the front of vehicle, no give,
> hold themselves up in front of vehicle, use pole heads
> with rings for straps or chains. These do not change
> into any other kind of pole. Vehicle must first be
> suitable for a yoke style pole. Fixed poles are
> HEAVY, THICK, because horses use the long pole to
> control the vehicle (usually heavier than a buggy) for
> turns, stopping. Fixed pole should stick out past
> horses heads to lessen the angle of pull sideways.
> Long pole makes strap to chest almost staight ahead.
> Horses stopping, are almost straight back, in their
> push against the breeching and pole straps of chest
> connection. Martingales ARE recommended. There is a
> mathmatical formula for length of fixed pole and horse
> size, to get the best use of animals. A size table is
> posted at the ADS site.
>
> Perhaps you can post some pictures. We are better
> able to advise, when we see what you are working with.
> However if vehicle has got a fixed pole, it probably
> won't change well. Body designed to work a certain
> way. Many vehicles available with other pole
> attachments, that might suit you better, if you wish
> to change. Perhaps someone local can let you see a
> drop pole, modern or marathon vehicle in action. Each
> style has good and bad. You may dislike them after
> seeing them in use!
>
> Kathy Robertson
>
>> Those of you who use a yoke on your pole - that
>> seems like a good idea. My pole
>> now has the loops right on the end. I looked in the
>> Witmer catalog and saw 3
>> yokes. They all seem to have a little leather tab
>> with a hole in it as the
>> center element. Can I just take the crab off my
>> (wooden)pole and attach the
>> yoke? What kind of hardware do you need to attach
>> the leather tab to the pole?
>> Neither my husband nor I are all that experienced
>> with driving a pair, but he
>> is an engineer and _very_ good at making stuff. I
>> did get a very good reminder
>> to have some safety backup keeping the yoke on the
>> pole - that certainly seems
>> like a good idea.
>> Stephanie
>> Blasted Rock Farm
>> Naples, NY
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 22:44:24 -0500
>> From: dogsnponies@xxxxxx
>> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Marathon yoke
>>
>>
>> My old boyfriend made me one using a spare
>> swingletree from the carraige. Took a little
>> ingenuity and a few trips to the hardware/auto parts
>> store. They don't come cheap from the manufacturers
>> and unless you are ordering it on the pole to begin
>> with- even worse. I have a very clever metal
>> fabricator here in NJ that helps me with a lot of
>> modifications.
>> Tracey
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of drivingpairs Digest V2 #27
>> *********************************
>>
> _________________________________________________________
>> To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go
>> to:
>> http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
>>
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> _________________________________________________________
> To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
> http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:47:27 -0800 (PST)
From: JLO <cicera65@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Stallion Pairs
Well, I've trained many a mini. That is a WHOLE other world. They are
not nearly the same as two 1000 lb Cob stallions or even my two 600
lb section A's. My boys are NEVER allowed to behave badly. They can
display a bit of excitment while breeding, but not in any other
circumstance. We plan to put a ton of mileage on Comet before we ever
even think about pairing him. Louie, his potential partner, is only 2
now, so in my opinion he will not be broke for another year. I feel
it is a criminal act to start younger than three. I know that is a
very personal decision, but for me it would literally keep me up
nights worrying what I was doing to his future soundness.
Same situation for the Section A team. Dude is being started now (age
5), Gator is a year away from even thinking about being hooked.
Just wanted to know if there were any crazies out there doing this
with the bigger boys. Both our pairs will be salt and pepper. Each
team will have a black pony. The other half of the teams will be
lighter in color. One Buckskin and one Chestnut. Oh and we will need
navigators for both teams LOL
Jodi in Morriston FL...who can never be a navigator under any circumstances.
------------------------------
From: "Don Hayes family" <djthayes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: stallion pairs??
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:56:16 -0600
Well, no, I haven't personally driven any stallions, in any combinations.
However, the same things apply as with any other combination you want to
drive together in any type of multiple. That is: Are they good single? Do
they generally get along in other situations? When handling them in ANY
situation, are YOU in charge? I don't think it matters what size or breed
they are, some will do fine and some will never work. This is no different
than a combination of any gender. Some will work, and some won't. If you
don't feel that you can judge for yourself, get a trainer to help you decide
if the ones you choose will indeed work the way you desire. A good trainer
should be able to evaluate them for you for the price of 1 or 2 lessons.
Cheap enough to prevent a disaster.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "JLO" <cicera65@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:15 AM
Subject: [drivingpairs] stallion pairs??
>
> I was wondering if anyone has ever driven a pair of stallions?? We
> have two potential pairs of stallions in our future. So far we have
> one of each pair in training. Comet our senior stallion already
> drives and we have a buckskin Cob up and coming that we would love to
> pair with him. I have Dude, our Section A, well on his way to being
> driven and would just love to pair him with Gator, our coming 2yr old
> Section A, some day in the not too distant future.
>
> Can anyone tell me if the has been done? There are times I think it's
> a fabulous idea and then times I think that Russ and I have lost our
> minds. They would look SPECTACULAR!!!
>
> Jodi in Morriston FL
>
> _________________________________________________________
> To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
> http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
------------------------------
From: "Don Hayes family" <djthayes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:45:25 -0600
This is exactly why I don't like the leather attachment for a neck yoke.
More modern, and safer, attachments are available. I do have an old "buggy"
yoke that has a metal "ring" that replaces the leather piece. It is about an
inch or so wide, fastens to a similar ring on the yoke with a swivel, and is
(well, was) lined with leather where is slides onto the pole end. I don't
know if these are being made by anyone anymore or not. I don't remember
seeing any in the catalogs that we get. These certainly look a lot safer to
me than the leather flap with a hole in it!
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Cuffey" <robyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> My first down the road pair experience was with an old wooden drop pole
> with a yoke. (only my second time driving pair) 50 yards from my
> driveway one horse started to turn, the yoke "ring" broke (it was old
> and the safety strap was torn) and down it went. All would have been
> well if I had pulled back on both reins but I thought I should stop the
> turning horse by pulling the rein on that side and I managed to pull the
> off horse so sideways he fell over the pole in a heap in the road. Not
> good. Since then I have avoided any leather attachment setup.
> Robyn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:04:50 -0800 (PST)
From: kathy robertson <goodhors@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Stallion Use-long
First, let me say there are many wonderful stallions
out in the performance world, doing their best work,
with skillful handlers. That said, all stallions are
not equal in temperment, or current temptations to act
like a stallion, so there are badly behaved stallions
who show up also.
Stallion's first thought is breeding, and that must be
kept in mind at ALL times, in EVERY situation. You
can not control the surroundings of every place you
take him. WE MARE OWNERS are not going to be real
considerate of him reacting to our mares in season.
Even if we are so stupid as to stop right beside him
or parade by him with tail in the air. It is always
going to be HIS fault for reacting. Harnessed, he has
to be no reaction, despite provocation!!!
Stallions I have seen being used, are as single
stallion in a pair or team. Stallions used as a
working horse are SELDOM/NEVER being bred during work
season. This means the WHOLE show season. Seems to
be part of the group thinking deal. You work when
with other horses, don't breed them. European stud
farms often have stallion hitches. However they are
not competing breeding stallions, and often do not get
the stallions out into group things like shows. Just
use the hitches as work training for young stallions.
They are more strict on evaluation of horse and a
little more age, before breeding.
Stallions are competitive about breeding, and will
often fight or attempt to fight, with another stallion
or strong gelding, they perceive as trying to infringe
on territory or mares. Spring and summer, show
season,
is high hormone time. Stallions being bred, are much
more ready to react, strongly, than non-breeding
stallions. Non-breeding, never been bred, stallions
react also, just usually have a little longer fuse.
They just get thinking of other things, and handler is
often way down the list, whether at home or away. It
is the nature of the beast, even good training is not
fail safe, though usually sufficient.
I don't know of any people driving pairs of stallions.
Some mixed pairs, often draft horses. Kennebec Count
is the most famous stallion driven, in mixed pairs, of
gelding and mare, partners. Don't know if the mare
was given any hormone treatment, as is common today,
was a long time ago. Count got super training,
experienced handlers for his varied exposure to
situations. Wonderful mind on the horse. Still,
there was only ONE stallion to deal with if problem
came up.
You don't say if young horses are stallions or
geldings, so I am presuming stallion, since you said
stallion pair. I would think that driving the two
stallions as a pair is possible. However you would be
better/safer? if one was gelded. Or if young horse
was never bred, to reduce competitive side. Less
horses to watch for reactions. However I am also
thinking you will wish to breed young horse or he
would be gelded. Older horse still may not like him
as a stallion. Some stallions hate each other.
I know you are in Florida, do horses show seasonal
changes with shorter days?
We have seen the best luck with colts, starting
things in late fall, short day light. Hormones are
way down, less argument, silliness. Stallions pay
attention better. Our stallion, broke and trained,
came from a Canadian ranch. They put the colt
training as the regular fall program. They ride/work
the 4 year olds daily, all genders and horses are
ready for logging training when the snow falls. This
is daily handling, horses get 1/2 day use, get tired.
Change horses for afternoon work. Short northern days.
No stallions bred until six. Not going to breed
brainless horses, must be trainable before breeding.
Five year olds are the summer work horses. Some don't
make stallions, getting cut for geldings. Any of the
stallion band was usable, before being given a herd.
Hard to replicate that kind of training without a
large ranch and hired help. Our stallion drove well
with his gelding companion. When we drove him he was
not being used as a breeding stallion. Big tough,
gelding lived with him all the time, and accepted 2nd
place in herd of two. Gelding was reliable and would
do as told even if stallion was distracted. VERY
IMPORTANT to have one listening horse. We gelded the
stallion and had a NICE pair of geldings. No real
use to us as a breeding horse, we are not breeders.
Though he had bred mares, thought well of himself, was
a nice, easy-to-live-with stallion. I think it helped
a lot that he had a companion. Was used to being a
herd horse.
I think it is an interesting idea driving a pair of
stallions, but see a lot of drawbacks. I don't think
it is something I would want to do.
A mixed pair would be safer, only one to watch hard,
particularly since you are inexperienced. I would
think getting older stallion, pair trained, going
with someone reliable first, would be the next step to
look at. Maybe there is a quiet gelding you could
rent as a pair schoolmaster? Younger horse would be
very confused, no help at all. Putting together two
horses, inexperienced in pairs, is a BAD thing!!
Between pair ignorant, young horse and shorter fused
older horse (stallions ARE sensitive), add stallion
competition, pair sounds dangerous, approached this
way.
If you desperatly want a pair to show off both
stallions, geld the younger horses. Get the younger
horses broke to drive, each trained to a pair, with
schoolmaster horse. Do you have pair trained mares for
schooling geldings? Then geldings all trained,
knowledgable, can be put with stallion in pair. Both
horses are able to understand the job and work with
you and partner horse. No reason for horses to be
upset, except that each is new to being with this
partner. Stalling beside each other can reduce that
newness also. You want all the factors for success to
be on your side, so everyone comes out winners.
Multiples can go to pieces in a heartbeat, just mares
and geldings. Asking stallions, you have to be
EXTREMELY well prepared for the task.
I would also go for lessons in pair handling. For
what you plan, this should be a MUST DO. Continental
Acres has trainers. Larry Poulin and Sterling Graburn
are available in Florida. Both VERY good multiples
drivers. They would show you rein adjustments, rein
handling, hitching, things that have never crossed
your mind, with pairs. This preparation is NEEDED
even if you only want to drive down the road, never
show. Even the very best stallion, is a different
game than a mare or gelding. It takes skill and
training to make a good driving horse. Sounds like
your stallion has the basics, just have to build on
them. Breeding and working stallion, can often be
done, but not if you make it too complicated, getting
him too frustrated to listen.
Let us know how it goes, if you pursue the pair idea.
It will be a long-term goal.
Kathy Robertson
> I was wondering if anyone has ever driven a pair of
> stallions?? We
> have two potential pairs of stallions in our future.
> So far we have
> one of each pair in training. Comet our senior
> stallion already
> drives and we have a buckskin Cob up and coming that
> we would love to
> pair with him. I have Dude, our Section A, well on
> his way to being
> driven and would just love to pair him with Gator,
> our coming 2yr old
> Section A, some day in the not too distant future.
>
> Can anyone tell me if the has been done? There are
> times I think it's
> a fabulous idea and then times I think that Russ and
> I have lost our
> minds. They would look SPECTACULAR!!!
>
> Jodi in Morriston FL
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:31:55 -0800 (PST)
From: kathy robertson <goodhors@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Calender-Breast Collar
If you check out the September picture of the pair,
the breast collars show off-set rings, on pole head
marathon vehicle. Having them even more off-set,
would reduce the pulling sideways, but need bigger
chested animals. You don't want ring on point of
shoulder.
I still think you need length, on pole/pole head,
for vehicle control. That gets it beyond horse chest,
for tight (marathon vehicle) turns. Horses can lift
heads for clearance, not the pole end. For US, the
yoke works better. Short pole with straight pull, no
sideways pulling, centered chest ring attachments. We
do have off-set rings on Tedman leader harness, to use
with traditional carriage pole head. Works fine even
though that is a long pole, when driving dressage
carriage.
In true, built-for-pair marathon harness, the
shoulder strap is very wide. Our big horses have
almost 4" shoulder strap. Not the same as a converted
single harness to pair. The neck strap also has a
support strap that comes around lower neck, to hold up
the front of the heavy padded breast collar. Visible
in picture, but loose with pole up. This harness has
off-set support strap, with only one ring on chest.
Our neck support strap is centered to hang on chest,
with one center ring on wheelers, and run thru both
leaders (we have two rings, right and left on both
leaders) offset rings, so coupler strap doesn't pull
breastcollars down. Yoke works with off-set rings
too. WE just wanted centered rings, we think they are
better for US. Many designs available.
I think September, Calendar girl Tracy posted above,
on pole heads. My take on Bellcrown's UK higher sales
of pole heads, over yokes, is training. There are a
LOT of traditionally trained drivers, trainers of
drivers, who also do Pleasure Carriages and CDE.
Began training in nice carriages, with pole heads, so
they buy the same thing when getting a marathon
vehicle. Yokes are not commonly seen in UK except on
drafts. Can be stuck in thinking because of training
ideas, how you were taught. Yokes are draft thing,
not CDE!
More U.S. drivers, start with cart for fun, find
driving clubs. Get exposed to buggy pairs, drafts,
before CDE. Makes it easier to see the efficiency of
harnessing system. Less of traditional, pole head,
carriage driving exposure. Also yoke is more common,
any style, in the U.S. U.S. drivers are quite willing
to try new things.
Using a yoke with a team of four is unusual, but we
have been happy with it, horses move well. Little
more work to hitch, planning pole springing,
clearances. This is where do-it-yourself is VERY
handy. Husband considers it a training challange.
Horses stay sounder when moving straight, not pulled
sideways. Happy horses are less challenge in other
parts of training.
If your pole is moving A LOT, it may need adjusting or
change. We started with a Warco pair marathon
vehicle.
Springs are flat, broke easily with certain movements.
Got an evaluation of spring metal and changed the
hardness, setting of height for pole to carry itself.
Had several extra sets made for spares. Made the pole
ride steadier, carries yoke weight but still moves
easily. Taught us a lot, fixing this problem.
Springs on used vehicle may be tired, worn, partially
broke?, set for smaller animals. Evaluate what can be
changed. What results do you want? Yoke ends can be
made locally, just attached to pole end. Use quality
metal, EXPENSIVE snap shackle fasteners for quick
release. Quality is more dependable for wear. Make
any rings, loops, large, to prevent binding of harness
or snap shackle removal. Aluminum yoke not
recommended, fractures easily. Pad yoke and pole so
horses are not bruised.
Pole should carry itself easily, sideways pull is
driver problem.
Change harness system, get horses pulling better,
moving straight, not away from pole, leaning, working
together. Drive BOTH horses, not just the eager one.
Move Pokey up, might relax Speedy.
Competition driving is very different than just
cruising down the road. Both are great, but demands
of harness, horses, vehicle are way different. A few
tweaks here and there can make it easier on all.
Driving should be FUN.
Kathy Robertson
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
------------------------------
End of drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
*********************************
_________________________________________________________
To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
------------------------------
From: Highhopesfarm@xxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:47:10 EST
Subject: [drivingpairs] Stallions in work
We compete with both our Section D and Section B stallion during breeding
season. They drive at the open shows and drive and ride at the Welsh Shows.
My cob also goes to open dressage shows during breeding season. They know
the difference. We use a cow bell whenever we breed. They know if they
don't have their bell on the better behave. Never had a problem with either
stallion. If I don't find another pony for my four in hand the stallion may
have to step up to the plate. Sarah in NY
Sarah and Jon Bates
9096 County Rd. 14
Honeoye Falls, NY 14472
(585)624-7637
<A HREF="http://www.highhopesfarms.com/";>HIGH HOPES FARM - Home of fine Welsh
Pony Stallions - horses for sale</A>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:21:00 -0800 (PST)
From: JLO <cicera65@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] stallion pairs
Hi Kathy,
I need to clarify a few things.
My husband has been driving pairs for several years (BIG ones). I
have been driving pairs for about 3 years. It would be Russ with the
bigger pair. I stick to the smaller ones. It looks nicer and I don't
feel overwhelmed. We have lots of experience hitching up pairs and
handling the lines. I've been to many fairs, parties, drives and
parades with my pairs. The pair I'm considering will be no larger
than those I've been playing with so far. Although I haven't competed
I have 25yrs of horse experience, 7 years of driving experience and 3
years driving pairs.
Also, this project is at least two years in the making. By then we
will know exactly how well Comet and Dude behave in public as
singles. The other two boys will be driving well as singles before we
ever consider hooking them as a pair. I'm sure we could get our hands
on an experienced gelding if we need to. I could probably even
recruit my mini for Dude and Gator if I need to. No one drives more
solidly than he (taught him myself and everything!!). We have trained
all our horses ourselves so far. I don't think I've ever sent a horse
out for training in my life.
Gelding the younger boys is not an option. Especially with Louie. Ya
just don't geld that kind of quality. Unfortunately we can't afford a
Cob gelding just to pair up. They are kinda pricey.
I'm not sure why I understand that is it acceptable for mare owners
to be inconsiderate and then blame the stallions. If you take a 15
year old boy to a nudist colony I bet he's gonna look. If you don't
want my stallion to be making noise, is it really that hard to keep
some distance?? If I owned a mare that was a kicker and I warned
folks about it, I would hope they would be considerate enough to stay
away from me if I were off alone minding my own business. Why should
it be different with a stud??
I'm not that worried about breeding season. I can put off our
breeding if that helps. Here the driving season ends in April. We
don't start breeding until May or June. It's a myth that spring is
breeding season. Actually it's LATE spring early summer that the
hormones are flying. Also we do all A.I. Our boys don't really think
that a mare equals breeding. They think a block of carpet covered
wood and Russ with an AV equals breeding. I intend to refine our
methods to the point where a mare is not even needed for teasing
purposes. Nice urine soaked rag and maybe even ground collection. We
shall see. The more I can seperate the mare from the breeding
equation, the better our showing will go.
So far temperamentally these boys are wonderful. They live in a barn
together where they can touch noses and play over the doors. I keep
them that way on purpose. They have to know how to live together. I
NEVER pasture a stallion with another horse of any gender. I value
them too much to risk a badly placed kick. The young Sec A colt is
out with the Hackney Pony colt and a gelding for now. Hackney is FOR
SALE by the way.. DIRT CHEAP.. (shameless plug). So far he is
clueless about his stallionhood. We don't move them with chains over
their noses, unless we have a day or two of rude behavior. We correct
it and then go back to normal, but that happens with ANY horse. We
treat them as we do every other horse on the property. I wouldn't put
up with being shoved or bullied by anyhorse, stallion, mare or
gelding. The saying goes "Treat a stallion like a stallion you will
have a stallion. Treat a stallion like a horse you will have a
horse". They really aren't snakes in the grass waiting to jump on you
at any moment. They can be taught to behave well under all
circumstances.
We have had the boys out in public and so far mares are not the
problem. Shoot we drive Comet around mares EVREY DAY here. We own a
billion mares (ok.. not that many.. but a lot). Our biggest problem
with Comet is certain types of noise. Comet hates loud persistant,
echoeing noise. He was really hateful at the Stallion Showcase
because he was stalled backing on the bleachers in an indoor arena.
All the whooping and hollerin in an echo chamber made him quite uhhhh
disagreeable. Then again, ME TOO!!! I hate sustained echoeing noise
it's painful to me and actually makes me angry. As soon as I took him
out of the stall and out of the building he was fine. He was even
fine to "perform" in the indoor. He just didn't like being trapped
with that annoying noise for twelve hours. Dude was a doll baby, he
was kissing children all day long. There were stallions all over the
place and my boys never once got combative. There were also mares
because of all the performing drill teams and such.
There are tons of studs out there showing and doing it quietly. I'm
just wondering if they can be paired. If it has ever been done
successfully. I'm one of the biggest skeptics BELIEVE me. I can see
the pitfalls. If it seems that it can't be done safely or that it's
NEVER been done, I'll be happy to scrap the plan. But boy would it be
a cool way to campaign all our stallions at once LOL
We do plan to start taking lessons again. I would love nothing more
than to have Sterling out here regularly. Little hard for me to
travel to him because I'm the sole caretaker of a 13 year old child,
4 dogs, a pot bellied pig AND, for the moment 29 horses, (number
decreasing daily). Clinics are hard for us to get to because they are
almost always on weekends and we work weekends. They also tend to be
out of our price range.
We will see. Just a crazy thought that Russ has been having for quite
some time. I think it would look incredible. I just want everyone
safe. I'm in no rush. The babies are just that, babies. They aren't
ready to be started. I'm a VERY slow starter. Ask Comet. He turns 6
in a couple of months and this will be his first show season.
Jodi in Morriston FL
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 03:58:38 -0500
From: Marcelle Quist <quistlaw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Driving stallions
Hey,
I drive a TB stallion, single, tandem, pair and 4. He is an
exceptional animal so my experience may not help anyone else on the
issue of pairs. Monty is an Advance level CDE horse, does pleasure
shows, the 4 of July Parade and gives lessons at the beginner drivers
clinic. He also was an Event horse and fox hunted. He has NEVER
behaved rudely in public. He also breeds during the show season. (Like
daily during the Southern Pines CDE 2 years ago!)
I believe he can do this because of two issues. First and
foremost, he has a personality that understands and obeys the rules.
He's never challenges authority and rules. Kinda like the "good" kid.
He just likes to behave. The second reason I believe, is because he was
pasture bred for years and has ALWAYS lived with other horses and that
includes stallion herds in the non breeding seasons. He's socialized.
He's lived out his entire life, knows how to interact with other horses
and has "horse" manners.
So when we put him in a pair with one of his pasture mates
(geldings) he was perfect. Then this year we tried him with his
"wife." She is a mare he has bred in the past. He was perfect. Sure
he tried to mention to her that he's the man but a simple (and typical)
correction with the whip or voice made him perfect. Of course they are
not a really good pair because they don't match and he does all the work
trying to show off! Now please understand I did this with a
professional trainer! And this horse is very broke driving and riding
and knows the difference between work and play.
So my suggestion is, yes, you might be able to drive them together
but you need to consider the stallions first. I would also encourage
anyone to make sure you socialize a stallion first. Horses have ways
that they "talk" and they all need to know the language. Some stallions
are so isolated that they never learn and become bullies or babies as a
result. These stallions are not suitable pairs because they don't react
like "horses" and the pair may not "like" them.
Good luck, it is worth a try because stallions can be a lot of fun!
Marcie Quist
------------------------------
From: "AConnors" <aconnors@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: (auto-response) Re: drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:16:00 -0500
This is driving related?
> I am pleased to announce that I have joined my brother
> in our new company - FOSTER REAL ESTATE SERVICES. I
> still concentrate on residential real estate and
> Murray handles the commercial market. We look forward
> to assisting with your real estate needs in the
> future! My phone number is still (901)335-2403 and my
> new e-mail address is afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew L. Foster
> Foster Real Estate Services
> 1770 Kirby Parkway #109
> Memphis TN 38138
>
>
>
>
> ----------- Original message follows -----------
>
>
>
>
> -- Attached file included as plaintext by Ecartis --
>
> Return-Path: <drivingpairs-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Delivered-To: coldwellbanker.com%afoster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Received: (cpmta 28035 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2003 23:13:44 -0800
> Received: from 206.53.239.180 (HELO turing.freelists.org)
> by smtp.c007.snv.cp.net (209.228.33.237) with SMTP; 5 Feb 2003
23:13:44 -0800
> X-Received: 6 Feb 2003 07:13:44 GMT
> Received: from turing.(none) (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP
> id BDE8B390BBE; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 02:05:42 -0500 (EST)
> Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list drivingpairs); Thu, 06 Feb 2003
02:05:39 -0500 (EST)
> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 02:05:39 -0500 (EST)
> From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: drivingpairs digest users <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
> Precedence: normal
> Message-Id: <20030206070542.BDE8B390BBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> drivingpairs Digest Wed, 05 Feb 2003 Volume: 02 Issue: 031
>
> In This Issue:
> [drivingpairs] Re: Stallion Pairs
> [drivingpairs] Re: stallion pairs??
> [drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
> [drivingpairs] Stallion Use-long
> [drivingpairs] Calender-Breast Collar
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:19:43 -0500
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
> From: Robyn Cuffey <robyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> My Eagle has a steel pole that pins to the carriage but hangs on a
> spring to adjust the height. It has a crab (SP?) end that pulls the neck
> straps sideways from the collars. I was told this is a drop pole because
> it can be released on to the ground. I have always been concerned about
> it pulling the horses sideways. Whenever I go to clinics or talk to more
> experienced pair drivers they tell me to keep my pole straps VERY short
> but that pulls more sideways. How do you prevent the horses from going
> crooked or prevent rubs on their shoulders. I am hoping to do
> competitive driving this summer and am already concerned about rubs. The
> spring does allow the pole to bounce
> and I would think that could sore up the top of their necks. It actually
> bounces more when they walk.
>
> My first down the road pair experience was with an old wooden drop pole
> with a yoke. (only my second time driving pair) 50 yards from my
> driveway one horse started to turn, the yoke "ring" broke (it was old
> and the safety strap was torn) and down it went. All would have been
> well if I had pulled back on both reins but I thought I should stop the
> turning horse by pulling the rein on that side and I managed to pull the
> off horse so sideways he fell over the pole in a heap in the road. Not
> good. Since then I have avoided any leather attachment setup.
> Robyn
> On Sunday, February 2, 2003, at 01:03 PM, kathy robertson wrote:
>
> >
> > I am going to say no to converting your present pole.
> >
> > There are three general classes of neck yoke poles.
> > Each works on the same principles, a yoke between
> > horses, but poles are NOT interchangable between the
> > styles of yokes.
> >
> > The first is the marathon pole for marathon vehicles.
> > Usually spring loaded to carry itself on the front of
> > vehicle. No weight on horses necks. Short pole made
> > of metal tubing, so yoke ends at horses chest.
> > Nothing sticking beyond the pole. Fits MODERN
> > vehicles, usually mostly metal ones.
> >
> > Second is the drop pole used on buggies. Very light,
> > and pretty long. This is the one used with light
> > weight, American vehicles, buggy types, surreys. Name
> > comes from being able to drop to the ground when not
> > harnessed. Yoke must hold pole up when driving. Pole
> > fastened to vehicle front with bolt, clip pins, which
> > allow an up and down motion for horse movement and
> > gentle hills in a road. Yoke leather tab slides over
> > the end of pole. Pole end has a cap with a raised
> > collar about 10" back to prevent yoke from running up
> > the pole. Pole should have a safety strap to fasten
> > around yoke. Strap is to prevent yoke from falling
> > off the end, by accident. Yoke should stay on until
> > safety strap is unfastened! Pole is longer than a
> > marathon pole would be, plus extra length beyond the
> > yoke. This allows horses to be hitched comfortably,
> > not tightly but not very loose either. Traces should
> > be tight before pushing yoke. Bigger horses would
> > need longer pole to not kick vehicle when trotting
> > fast. Yoke attachment plus straps to collar, will
> > allow more slack/play, than marathon yoke clips. I
> > would recommend using neck collars, not breast collars
> > for this kind of yoke. The horses will have to
> > support the pole weight the whole time they are
> > hitched. A neck collar is wider to spread load on a
> > bigger neck area. Evener with singletrees is how
> > traces attach at vehicle.
> >
> > Third type of neck yoke is the draft horse hitch,
> > usually seen on big wagons. That neck yoke is large,
> > thick with a big metal ring to fit over the heavy
> > dropped pole used on wagons. Pole end sticks out of
> > neck yoke ring a fair length, to prevent yoke coming
> > off by accident. There is a stopper on the bottom of
> > pole to prevent yoke running up the pole. Extra
> > length of pole gives horses control of vehicle as well
> > as preventing accidental yoke coming off. Draft horse
> > style hitching is usually pretty loose, since they
> > have a long time in harness. Don't want to sore the
> > horse, but does give more room before horses and yoke
> > get in draft. Extra pole length beyond yoke stopper
> > is REALLY needed. Also may be used to put more horses
> > out front, like a four or six, so additional divider
> > pole and eveners would be hung off the pole's end on
> > wagon. Again, neck collars are recommended. Wagon
> > poles are VERY heavy. Pole weight is on horse necks
> > the whole time horses are hitched.
> >
> > Both the dropped pole and wagon poles must have extra
> > pole length beyond yoke or safety strap to prevent
> > yoke from coming off. Too long of traces allow horses
> > out too far. They can push yoke off the end of pole.
> > Removing the yoke will allow the pole to DROP
> > instantly. It WILL spear into the ground, stopping
> > vehicle, usually creating a bad accident, since horse
> > have NOT stopped. Pole might slide on pavement. I
> > don't want to picture it!
> >
> > Fixed polesstick out the front of vehicle, no give,
> > hold themselves up in front of vehicle, use pole heads
> > with rings for straps or chains. These do not change
> > into any other kind of pole. Vehicle must first be
> > suitable for a yoke style pole. Fixed poles are
> > HEAVY, THICK, because horses use the long pole to
> > control the vehicle (usually heavier than a buggy) for
> > turns, stopping. Fixed pole should stick out past
> > horses heads to lessen the angle of pull sideways.
> > Long pole makes strap to chest almost staight ahead.
> > Horses stopping, are almost straight back, in their
> > push against the breeching and pole straps of chest
> > connection. Martingales ARE recommended. There is a
> > mathmatical formula for length of fixed pole and horse
> > size, to get the best use of animals. A size table is
> > posted at the ADS site.
> >
> > Perhaps you can post some pictures. We are better
> > able to advise, when we see what you are working with.
> > However if vehicle has got a fixed pole, it probably
> > won't change well. Body designed to work a certain
> > way. Many vehicles available with other pole
> > attachments, that might suit you better, if you wish
> > to change. Perhaps someone local can let you see a
> > drop pole, modern or marathon vehicle in action. Each
> > style has good and bad. You may dislike them after
> > seeing them in use!
> >
> > Kathy Robertson
> >
> >> Those of you who use a yoke on your pole - that
> >> seems like a good idea. My pole
> >> now has the loops right on the end. I looked in the
> >> Witmer catalog and saw 3
> >> yokes. They all seem to have a little leather tab
> >> with a hole in it as the
> >> center element. Can I just take the crab off my
> >> (wooden)pole and attach the
> >> yoke? What kind of hardware do you need to attach
> >> the leather tab to the pole?
> >> Neither my husband nor I are all that experienced
> >> with driving a pair, but he
> >> is an engineer and _very_ good at making stuff. I
> >> did get a very good reminder
> >> to have some safety backup keeping the yoke on the
> >> pole - that certainly seems
> >> like a good idea.
> >> Stephanie
> >> Blasted Rock Farm
> >> Naples, NY
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 22:44:24 -0500
> >> From: dogsnponies@xxxxxx
> >> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Marathon yoke
> >>
> >>
> >> My old boyfriend made me one using a spare
> >> swingletree from the carraige. Took a little
> >> ingenuity and a few trips to the hardware/auto parts
> >> store. They don't come cheap from the manufacturers
> >> and unless you are ordering it on the pole to begin
> >> with- even worse. I have a very clever metal
> >> fabricator here in NJ that helps me with a lot of
> >> modifications.
> >> Tracey
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> End of drivingpairs Digest V2 #27
> >> *********************************
> >>
> > _________________________________________________________
> >> To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go
> >> to:
> >> http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> >>
> > `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> > _________________________________________________________
> > To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
> > http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> > `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:47:27 -0800 (PST)
> From: JLO <cicera65@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Stallion Pairs
>
>
> Well, I've trained many a mini. That is a WHOLE other world. They are
> not nearly the same as two 1000 lb Cob stallions or even my two 600
> lb section A's. My boys are NEVER allowed to behave badly. They can
> display a bit of excitment while breeding, but not in any other
> circumstance. We plan to put a ton of mileage on Comet before we ever
> even think about pairing him. Louie, his potential partner, is only 2
> now, so in my opinion he will not be broke for another year. I feel
> it is a criminal act to start younger than three. I know that is a
> very personal decision, but for me it would literally keep me up
> nights worrying what I was doing to his future soundness.
>
> Same situation for the Section A team. Dude is being started now (age
> 5), Gator is a year away from even thinking about being hooked.
>
> Just wanted to know if there were any crazies out there doing this
> with the bigger boys. Both our pairs will be salt and pepper. Each
> team will have a black pony. The other half of the teams will be
> lighter in color. One Buckskin and one Chestnut. Oh and we will need
> navigators for both teams LOL
>
> Jodi in Morriston FL...who can never be a navigator under any
circumstances.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Don Hayes family" <djthayes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: stallion pairs??
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:56:16 -0600
>
>
> Well, no, I haven't personally driven any stallions, in any combinations.
> However, the same things apply as with any other combination you want to
> drive together in any type of multiple. That is: Are they good single? Do
> they generally get along in other situations? When handling them in ANY
> situation, are YOU in charge? I don't think it matters what size or breed
> they are, some will do fine and some will never work. This is no different
> than a combination of any gender. Some will work, and some won't. If you
> don't feel that you can judge for yourself, get a trainer to help you
decide
> if the ones you choose will indeed work the way you desire. A good trainer
> should be able to evaluate them for you for the price of 1 or 2 lessons.
> Cheap enough to prevent a disaster.
> Don
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JLO" <cicera65@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <drivingpairs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:15 AM
> Subject: [drivingpairs] stallion pairs??
>
>
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone has ever driven a pair of stallions?? We
> > have two potential pairs of stallions in our future. So far we have
> > one of each pair in training. Comet our senior stallion already
> > drives and we have a buckskin Cob up and coming that we would love to
> > pair with him. I have Dude, our Section A, well on his way to being
> > driven and would just love to pair him with Gator, our coming 2yr old
> > Section A, some day in the not too distant future.
> >
> > Can anyone tell me if the has been done? There are times I think it's
> > a fabulous idea and then times I think that Russ and I have lost our
> > minds. They would look SPECTACULAR!!!
> >
> > Jodi in Morriston FL
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
> > http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> > `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Don Hayes family" <djthayes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: Neck Yokes-Long
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:45:25 -0600
>
>
> This is exactly why I don't like the leather attachment for a neck yoke.
> More modern, and safer, attachments are available. I do have an old
"buggy"
> yoke that has a metal "ring" that replaces the leather piece. It is about
an
> inch or so wide, fastens to a similar ring on the yoke with a swivel, and
is
> (well, was) lined with leather where is slides onto the pole end. I don't
> know if these are being made by anyone anymore or not. I don't remember
> seeing any in the catalogs that we get. These certainly look a lot safer
to
> me than the leather flap with a hole in it!
> Don
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robyn Cuffey" <robyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > My first down the road pair experience was with an old wooden drop pole
> > with a yoke. (only my second time driving pair) 50 yards from my
> > driveway one horse started to turn, the yoke "ring" broke (it was old
> > and the safety strap was torn) and down it went. All would have been
> > well if I had pulled back on both reins but I thought I should stop the
> > turning horse by pulling the rein on that side and I managed to pull the
> > off horse so sideways he fell over the pole in a heap in the road. Not
> > good. Since then I have avoided any leather attachment setup.
> > Robyn
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:04:50 -0800 (PST)
> From: kathy robertson <goodhors@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Stallion Use-long
>
>
> First, let me say there are many wonderful stallions
> out in the performance world, doing their best work,
> with skillful handlers. That said, all stallions are
> not equal in temperment, or current temptations to act
> like a stallion, so there are badly behaved stallions
> who show up also.
>
> Stallion's first thought is breeding, and that must be
> kept in mind at ALL times, in EVERY situation. You
> can not control the surroundings of every place you
> take him. WE MARE OWNERS are not going to be real
> considerate of him reacting to our mares in season.
> Even if we are so stupid as to stop right beside him
> or parade by him with tail in the air. It is always
> going to be HIS fault for reacting. Harnessed, he has
> to be no reaction, despite provocation!!!
>
> Stallions I have seen being used, are as single
> stallion in a pair or team. Stallions used as a
> working horse are SELDOM/NEVER being bred during work
> season. This means the WHOLE show season. Seems to
> be part of the group thinking deal. You work when
> with other horses, don't breed them. European stud
> farms often have stallion hitches. However they are
> not competing breeding stallions, and often do not get
> the stallions out into group things like shows. Just
> use the hitches as work training for young stallions.
> They are more strict on evaluation of horse and a
> little more age, before breeding.
>
> Stallions are competitive about breeding, and will
> often fight or attempt to fight, with another stallion
> or strong gelding, they perceive as trying to infringe
> on territory or mares. Spring and summer, show
> season,
> is high hormone time. Stallions being bred, are much
> more ready to react, strongly, than non-breeding
> stallions. Non-breeding, never been bred, stallions
> react also, just usually have a little longer fuse.
> They just get thinking of other things, and handler is
> often way down the list, whether at home or away. It
> is the nature of the beast, even good training is not
> fail safe, though usually sufficient.
>
> I don't know of any people driving pairs of stallions.
> Some mixed pairs, often draft horses. Kennebec Count
> is the most famous stallion driven, in mixed pairs, of
> gelding and mare, partners. Don't know if the mare
> was given any hormone treatment, as is common today,
> was a long time ago. Count got super training,
> experienced handlers for his varied exposure to
> situations. Wonderful mind on the horse. Still,
> there was only ONE stallion to deal with if problem
> came up.
>
> You don't say if young horses are stallions or
> geldings, so I am presuming stallion, since you said
> stallion pair. I would think that driving the two
> stallions as a pair is possible. However you would be
> better/safer? if one was gelded. Or if young horse
> was never bred, to reduce competitive side. Less
> horses to watch for reactions. However I am also
> thinking you will wish to breed young horse or he
> would be gelded. Older horse still may not like him
> as a stallion. Some stallions hate each other.
> I know you are in Florida, do horses show seasonal
> changes with shorter days?
> We have seen the best luck with colts, starting
> things in late fall, short day light. Hormones are
> way down, less argument, silliness. Stallions pay
> attention better. Our stallion, broke and trained,
> came from a Canadian ranch. They put the colt
> training as the regular fall program. They ride/work
> the 4 year olds daily, all genders and horses are
> ready for logging training when the snow falls. This
> is daily handling, horses get 1/2 day use, get tired.
> Change horses for afternoon work. Short northern days.
> No stallions bred until six. Not going to breed
> brainless horses, must be trainable before breeding.
> Five year olds are the summer work horses. Some don't
> make stallions, getting cut for geldings. Any of the
> stallion band was usable, before being given a herd.
> Hard to replicate that kind of training without a
> large ranch and hired help. Our stallion drove well
> with his gelding companion. When we drove him he was
> not being used as a breeding stallion. Big tough,
> gelding lived with him all the time, and accepted 2nd
> place in herd of two. Gelding was reliable and would
> do as told even if stallion was distracted. VERY
> IMPORTANT to have one listening horse. We gelded the
> stallion and had a NICE pair of geldings. No real
> use to us as a breeding horse, we are not breeders.
> Though he had bred mares, thought well of himself, was
> a nice, easy-to-live-with stallion. I think it helped
> a lot that he had a companion. Was used to being a
> herd horse.
> I think it is an interesting idea driving a pair of
> stallions, but see a lot of drawbacks. I don't think
> it is something I would want to do.
> A mixed pair would be safer, only one to watch hard,
> particularly since you are inexperienced. I would
> think getting older stallion, pair trained, going
> with someone reliable first, would be the next step to
> look at. Maybe there is a quiet gelding you could
> rent as a pair schoolmaster? Younger horse would be
> very confused, no help at all. Putting together two
> horses, inexperienced in pairs, is a BAD thing!!
> Between pair ignorant, young horse and shorter fused
> older horse (stallions ARE sensitive), add stallion
> competition, pair sounds dangerous, approached this
> way.
> If you desperatly want a pair to show off both
> stallions, geld the younger horses. Get the younger
> horses broke to drive, each trained to a pair, with
> schoolmaster horse. Do you have pair trained mares for
> schooling geldings? Then geldings all trained,
> knowledgable, can be put with stallion in pair. Both
> horses are able to understand the job and work with
> you and partner horse. No reason for horses to be
> upset, except that each is new to being with this
> partner. Stalling beside each other can reduce that
> newness also. You want all the factors for success to
> be on your side, so everyone comes out winners.
> Multiples can go to pieces in a heartbeat, just mares
> and geldings. Asking stallions, you have to be
> EXTREMELY well prepared for the task.
> I would also go for lessons in pair handling. For
> what you plan, this should be a MUST DO. Continental
> Acres has trainers. Larry Poulin and Sterling Graburn
> are available in Florida. Both VERY good multiples
> drivers. They would show you rein adjustments, rein
> handling, hitching, things that have never crossed
> your mind, with pairs. This preparation is NEEDED
> even if you only want to drive down the road, never
> show. Even the very best stallion, is a different
> game than a mare or gelding. It takes skill and
> training to make a good driving horse. Sounds like
> your stallion has the basics, just have to build on
> them. Breeding and working stallion, can often be
> done, but not if you make it too complicated, getting
> him too frustrated to listen.
>
> Let us know how it goes, if you pursue the pair idea.
> It will be a long-term goal.
>
> Kathy Robertson
>
>
> > I was wondering if anyone has ever driven a pair of
> > stallions?? We
> > have two potential pairs of stallions in our future.
> > So far we have
> > one of each pair in training. Comet our senior
> > stallion already
> > drives and we have a buckskin Cob up and coming that
> > we would love to
> > pair with him. I have Dude, our Section A, well on
> > his way to being
> > driven and would just love to pair him with Gator,
> > our coming 2yr old
> > Section A, some day in the not too distant future.
> >
> > Can anyone tell me if the has been done? There are
> > times I think it's
> > a fabulous idea and then times I think that Russ and
> > I have lost our
> > minds. They would look SPECTACULAR!!!
> >
> > Jodi in Morriston FL
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:31:55 -0800 (PST)
> From: kathy robertson <goodhors@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [drivingpairs] Calender-Breast Collar
>
>
> If you check out the September picture of the pair,
> the breast collars show off-set rings, on pole head
> marathon vehicle. Having them even more off-set,
> would reduce the pulling sideways, but need bigger
> chested animals. You don't want ring on point of
> shoulder.
> I still think you need length, on pole/pole head,
> for vehicle control. That gets it beyond horse chest,
> for tight (marathon vehicle) turns. Horses can lift
> heads for clearance, not the pole end. For US, the
> yoke works better. Short pole with straight pull, no
> sideways pulling, centered chest ring attachments. We
> do have off-set rings on Tedman leader harness, to use
> with traditional carriage pole head. Works fine even
> though that is a long pole, when driving dressage
> carriage.
> In true, built-for-pair marathon harness, the
> shoulder strap is very wide. Our big horses have
> almost 4" shoulder strap. Not the same as a converted
> single harness to pair. The neck strap also has a
> support strap that comes around lower neck, to hold up
> the front of the heavy padded breast collar. Visible
> in picture, but loose with pole up. This harness has
> off-set support strap, with only one ring on chest.
> Our neck support strap is centered to hang on chest,
> with one center ring on wheelers, and run thru both
> leaders (we have two rings, right and left on both
> leaders) offset rings, so coupler strap doesn't pull
> breastcollars down. Yoke works with off-set rings
> too. WE just wanted centered rings, we think they are
> better for US. Many designs available.
>
> I think September, Calendar girl Tracy posted above,
> on pole heads. My take on Bellcrown's UK higher sales
> of pole heads, over yokes, is training. There are a
> LOT of traditionally trained drivers, trainers of
> drivers, who also do Pleasure Carriages and CDE.
> Began training in nice carriages, with pole heads, so
> they buy the same thing when getting a marathon
> vehicle. Yokes are not commonly seen in UK except on
> drafts. Can be stuck in thinking because of training
> ideas, how you were taught. Yokes are draft thing,
> not CDE!
>
> More U.S. drivers, start with cart for fun, find
> driving clubs. Get exposed to buggy pairs, drafts,
> before CDE. Makes it easier to see the efficiency of
> harnessing system. Less of traditional, pole head,
> carriage driving exposure. Also yoke is more common,
> any style, in the U.S. U.S. drivers are quite willing
> to try new things.
> Using a yoke with a team of four is unusual, but we
> have been happy with it, horses move well. Little
> more work to hitch, planning pole springing,
> clearances. This is where do-it-yourself is VERY
> handy. Husband considers it a training challange.
> Horses stay sounder when moving straight, not pulled
> sideways. Happy horses are less challenge in other
> parts of training.
>
> If your pole is moving A LOT, it may need adjusting or
> change. We started with a Warco pair marathon
> vehicle.
> Springs are flat, broke easily with certain movements.
> Got an evaluation of spring metal and changed the
> hardness, setting of height for pole to carry itself.
> Had several extra sets made for spares. Made the pole
> ride steadier, carries yoke weight but still moves
> easily. Taught us a lot, fixing this problem.
> Springs on used vehicle may be tired, worn, partially
> broke?, set for smaller animals. Evaluate what can be
> changed. What results do you want? Yoke ends can be
> made locally, just attached to pole end. Use quality
> metal, EXPENSIVE snap shackle fasteners for quick
> release. Quality is more dependable for wear. Make
> any rings, loops, large, to prevent binding of harness
> or snap shackle removal. Aluminum yoke not
> recommended, fractures easily. Pad yoke and pole so
> horses are not bruised.
>
> Pole should carry itself easily, sideways pull is
> driver problem.
> Change harness system, get horses pulling better,
> moving straight, not away from pole, leaning, working
> together. Drive BOTH horses, not just the eager one.
> Move Pokey up, might relax Speedy.
> Competition driving is very different than just
> cruising down the road. Both are great, but demands
> of harness, horses, vehicle are way different. A few
> tweaks here and there can make it easier on all.
> Driving should be FUN.
>
> Kathy Robertson
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
> *********************************
> _________________________________________________________
> To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
> http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
> http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 19:34:30 -0500
From: noel jones <gedeckt@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Re: (auto-response) Re: drivingpairs Digest V2 #31
AConnors wrote:
> This is driving related?
This was a bounced mail auto-respnse...not sure if it was from a member's
account or not...helen will check, but you would be amazed at the strange mail
that is floating around right now due to virii. All designed to look like it
came from the address listed when it didn't.
Now if there is a pair looking for a house in Memphis this may be the man to
call.
By the way, dressage shows in the Memphis area start at 6am to avoid the hot
part of the day...
noel jones, aago
athens, tennessee, usa
-------------------------------
frog music press
rodgers organ users group
www.frogmusic.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:03:11 -0800 (PST)
From: kathy robertson <goodhors@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Stallion Pairs
Jodi, I did not know of your pair experience. I think
it's better for me to put all the minus things out,
then get the plus points from others, brought out to
counter them. You mentioned lots more detail when you
replied! Sounds like you have a lot of good stuff
already going for a stallion pair and are willing to
look at the long route to achieve it.
We have used AI, but it never came up in my thoughts.
Conditioning to breed in certain conditions is a very
good idea, horses love routine. Stallion relates to
situation specific, behaviour. Bell idea is
different, but good. Not something I ever heard of
before. Certain conditioning can backfire though, if
you don't check stuff out ahead. A stallion we know
is always collected on a mount, never live cover.
RELIABLE around all horses. Owner was at a show,
riding to show ring, when they came to a vendor
display, selling breeding mounts. Horse's brain fell
out that day!! Normally a REALLY steady horse. She
just put him away. Rode to ring a different way the
next day! Ha-Ha, owner said "Live and learn. Walk
your route ahead of time!"
I did remember some Currier and Ives pictures of
stallion hitches. There is a four of stallions, black
Morgans, and I think a pair of trotters. They were
all big name horses of the times. Pretty pictures. A
horse who works for a living is often more willing to
accept things, just because he is kept busy. We were
talking when my husband remembered that Weibe Dragstra
drove a four of purebred Arab stallions, pony small,
but very elegant. Also Jim Sutton had a four of
unbred, young Fjord stallions, he specifically handled
to be a team of four. He bred for them and raised
them together, till he drove them. Both teams were a
number of years ago.
The insconsiderate mare owners are often unobservant,
unthinking. Your well-behaved stallion is quiet, they
never really "look" at him, presume he is a gelding.
Still bad manners, too close. Driver must speak up to
gain space for their horse. Attending an Equine
Affair last year, we saw such careless behaviour
around stallions, butt-slapping strange horses,
getting strange horses in tight with another.
Granted, many were drugged, but people were just
stupid, no sense of self-preservation! Even just
driving our pair, we had folk literally walking into
sides of horses, stopping right in front of us, almost
got speared on the pole! Mare got jerked to halt, and
then snotted all over the woman's head! Scared the
bejabbers out of her, she jumped two feet. I was in
front of pair, clearing a route, lady cut between me
and horses, never looked sideways. This was supposed
to be an owners, handlers only area. Should only be
horsepeople in there. Just can't trust folks to be
safe.
You mentioned your stallions are too expensive to
put together, might get damaged. My concern would be
that stallion is not used to contact from other
horses. Could regard bumping as agression from other
horse, even if it was the pole. We keep the team
together. They have to develop group tolerance. A
bump or rub is not a fight issue. When being handled,
accidental bumps are a move over, ho-hum issue.
Blinders, might make contact a non-issue anyway. Just
a thought.
Quality of horses, better, new ideas in training,
thoughtful handling, has produced a lot of good-minded
stallions. I think the quality of competition
stallions out now, has been improved from the past.
Glad your stallions don't cause you any worry. I know
that the bad horses sure stick in your mind, giving
all of that breed, color, gender, a bad name.
Maybe you could get a small clinic together at a your
place or close by. Pretty casual format. A clinician
could come in the middle of the week for 3-4 pair
participants, for a couple days. We like that kind of
format, get lots of attention. We all hitch and go
out together, but horses alternate so not exhausted,
learn even more by watching each other. Split four
ways, cost can be less. Especially good is the
discussion over the pot-luck lunch and dinners.
REALLY get a lot from that. Clinician stays a
someone's house, then maybe does a weekend clinic
nearby, so can get paid a two-fer on one trip, for his
time. Would leave your weekends free for work.
Go ahead and try working towards a pair. Goals are
fun to work towards, the road there can be very
interesting!
Kathy Robertson
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 21:57:30 -0600
From: Meghan Benge <mbenge1210@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [drivingpairs] Stallion pairs
Hey Jodi-
We have driven our stallion in a pair with his gelding son. (well we did
it once LOL) He knows when the harness is on its time for working not
playing !
The place we stayed at in Germany had pictures of a stallion pair, that
seemed to go well together. So it can be done.
Meghan Benge
------------------------------
End of drivingpairs Digest V2 #32
*********************************
_________________________________________________________
To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
_________________________________________________________
To Unsubscribe, change to Digest or Vacation mode go to:
http://www.drivingpairs.com/dpmem.html
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Other related posts:
- » [drivingpairs] (auto-response) Re: drivingpairs Digest V2 #32