Hi all: Our recent discussion of the "post-choreographic? seems to have ended in a bit of an unresolved state -- our attention shifted to ?Glow? and ?Silent Room? after Hélène urged us to look Skoltz_Kolgen & I became interested in what S_K call ?contamination of the senses??? -- i'm afraid I did not fully answer Matt?s very cogently argued points about the ?technological and perceptual context of the sensors? in his February 20 post. Naturally, it would nice to hear from others. To refresh ::[Matt wrote] >> in «suna no onna» there are three elements which form the choreographic structure; scenario, scenography and sensors. using these elements the performers engage in realtime composition and improvisation. whilst the improvisation and composition may occur after the creation of a choreographic structure they are not 'post choreographic'. if we were to follow your logic then all performance would be 'post-choreographic' in that it resulted 'from', rather than 'being' the choreography. the sensorial 'flow' in «suna no onna» may be emergent but the 'data' itself is not. you have chosen the - type of sensors - location of sensors - sensor sampling rate - sensor sensitivity range - sensor communication protocol - affect sensor can have on the environment all these things are a mix of structure and form, the 'flow' is emergent content. this flow/content is derived from the actions of the performers, which the sensors /garments are designed to (continuously) sample. the 'sensorial flow' is the outcome of the arrangement of hardware/software. the fact that the performers can use this output as stimulus is irrelevant. the flow is a function of your choreographic and dramaturlogical structure. >>> I think Matt has argued quite fervently for a sustainable notion of ?choreography? even under conditions of real-time enactment and composition, emergence and complexity within the dramaturgical arrangements for ?sensorial flow? and thus, as I tried to suggest, within an undetermined framework for realization or manifestation generating a new performance each time such a ?work? is produced. My notion of dramaturgy here is directec cleartly towards the sensorial and experiential, and a kind of "design in motion". Even as I agree with everything Matt lists above (referring to the sensors and the ?design?), I still would not think of the performance techniques we work with as ?choreographic? ? I don't know what word to use. I never experienced the sensors to be predictable or behaving according to protocol, and if you suggest that all movement is always (Judson example) ?adaptable? to specific and changing circumstances, thus following ?choreographic rules?, then I am at a loss for words again, as on the one hand it would make the term choreographic apply to anything (thus making it less useful , no?), and on the other it would exclude a fluidity in the structural itself. For me structure is not something fixed or determined as you imply in your examples. I can easily undestand STRUCTURE AS OUTCOME. that is what I thought was implied by my suggestion of the post-choreographic. Our performers are not working in the way you suggest, are not following rules nor adapting, strictly speaking, even to a changing sensorial & digital (virtual) environment. I was thinking that the real time composition of the actions and reactions to responsive behaviors in the projected (perceived, seen, heard, felt, touched?) environment creates an interfacial momentum that, unlike your structural argument, is much more molecular. >>but all 'moving' objects (physical or represented/mediated) in a performative >>setting are choreographed>> well. Not really, . You reply to my suggestions saying that ?wanting to explore the sensate does not exclude the choreographic,? and you may very well be right. All of our performance techniques and the real-time enactions were owed to the exploration of the tactile and sensorial garments as ?characters,? and we certainly did work off a narrative structure. But this structure did not determine the objects. We didn't think that the enactions and the sensorial processes were enframed by the choreographic as an apparatus of distribution and organization. That apparatus seemed to have receded from sight. ** I read production notes from Fahrudin Salihbegovic the other day, he had created a ?digital performance? in Serbia and written about their struggling with sensors and digital environment programming. He comes to the conclusion that he had wanted to transform the theatre into a new cybertheatre of interactivity, but when he noticed that the sensors were not working, he thought they had nevertheless created a ?dramaturgy of digital performance? for interactivity. He says that ?it was proven to us that a performance can be interactive and at the same time be organized as a stable dramaturgical structure. We simply created a dramaturgical space for the interactivity, a framework for its safe use? (they ended up using a camera interface for Isadora video effects in ?Waar is daar?). My point (regarding Suna no Onna) was exactly the opposite. We were not creating a safe structure. Although i might be deluding myself, since we had a scenario for sure, carefully "set in motion,." Yet i have also, like Fahrudin, experienced enough situtions where we or someone worked with brittle interfaces and ended up having a back up plan (plan B), to simulate the interactivity or play tape (as was done in the Trisha Brown touring of "how much......" ), some strange cases of bad faith indeed. Performing with the sensorial garments to create a ?wearable space? can?t result in an interfacial composition in the digital sense of enaction if the emergent flow is not changing the environment. If it does not change the environment, I am afraid we end up with uninteresting choreography, at least I would fear so in the context of the digital and the way it is explored through real time enactment and interactivity. I could be wrong though, Richard Povall has argued strongly for carefully rehearsed and well crafted choreography, if i understand him correctly, and Richard of course worked with Big Eye early on. Those were the days, the early adapter days. now the Royal Ballet does it too. ("Electric Counterpoint, Royal Ballet " : http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/stage/dance/article3492122.ece) With regards Johannes Birringer DAP-Lab