[brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do

 
 How in the hell have i been accusatory?  Go re-read your emails and get over yourself yohandy.  I'm done with this discussion because it's clear you cannot have a discussion without attacking people.  Your tone was discouraging to any blind gamer and you specifically said that people wouldn't be able to get beyond the mall part.  You're contradicting yourself now and trying to make me look like something I'm not just because I challenge the general thinking of blind gamers.  Do you not want freethinking people like me designing games for you guys?  Who thinks about what you can or cannot do and pushes you a little to do things that ARE possible if you journey outside the box?  You find a person who actually considers what you guys can or cannot do and don't say for one minute there's no way in hell I can do that.  I live with Brandon, I've been around blind people since I was 15 years old.  You wanna go ahead and attack me for trying to help people to tell them not to listen to your drivel when you yourself have not put up any facts and still have not put up any facts to tell anyone how this game is playable only examples of where you think it isn't.  You've brought nothing to the table but negativity.  Thus proving my point.  Now enjoy yourself and have a good day.  I'm gonna go back to working on my new site for my online wrestling federation that is accessible to the blind. 
 
What Brandon says holds true here.  I was trying to help and I will not pay attention to someone who throws bullshit insults at me instead of giving me and everyone else on this list facts.  I've given examples and I've given examples of my own struggles as a sighted gamer to show it's not a cup of tea gaming for us either.  You made this an unnecessary arguement by saying I was proving your point when I wasn't at all.  Your stance from the get go has been buyer beware just as Mike said in an earlier email.  I don't believe in buyer beware in a game that's failproof and you're trying to make it look like I'm wrong for it.  So really who looks stupid here? Me or you?  Bring me facts about how I'm missguided yohandy regarding the topic of discussion HEAVY RAIN.  Don't go babbling to me about mario or any other game you've played.  If you think I'm arrogant then you don't really know me.  If I'm arrogant for supporting brandon's reasoning behind this site and wanting to push for blind gaming to be creative and for people to really put forth effort and not just play it a handfull of times and then deem it not playable then fine I'm arrogant and I'll take that title proudly.  The people who know me on this list know better.
 
I'm leaving it at that.  There's nothing more to say but just so people get clearly what my point was amongst all this stupid argueing caused by you.  I'll once again say that heavy rain is playable and I believe that whole heartedly but only if you're a determined gamer.  You want a cakewalk? Find it elsewhere.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do
From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, March 07, 2010 9:28 am
To: <brandonslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>


honestly where on earth are you getting all this from? How many times do I need to explain to you I never said the game wasn't playable? Oh and to clear some things up, I never told Brandon my sister beat anything, I said we were both playing. as in, taking turns throughout the story. Brandon also told me you two were playing together as well. Isn't that true? you say I told people not to buy this game? Uh... when? I don't recall saying anything that could be interpreted as "don't buy this game guys, it's not playable". I clearly stated the game would be tough for the average blind gamer to get through, not impossible. I'm not new to gaming guys. I still own an original snes, and I frequently play games like Super Mario 3 and donkey kong. I never actually beat SMB3, but I was pretty competent for many of the levels. If I haven't given up on such old games, what makes you think I'd give up on heavy rain simply because it's tough? Brandon, your input is appreciated. you managed to come off non-accusatory, unlike Misty. either you took some time to think it through and write the email, or you're just good at not sounding that way. I certainly understand where you're coming from in regards to your gaming methods. I always use totally bizarre strategies similar to the one you mentioned to get through games, and I always do things like time the CPU and take advantage of its weakness. AI's usually follow patterns in games ----- that could easily be exploited if one pays attention. Super Mario world is a game everyone here should be familiar with so I'll discuss that. one thing I usually did which would probably be frowned upon by most sighted gamers was with yoshi, I'd usually run full speed and run into enemies. they'd take him away but since I was going full speed, I'd get him back with in a second or so. once the placement of pits was memorized, many levels became a lot easier using this strategy, especially if the level contained many enemies to make my job easier. banging my head into solid objects was also a strategy of mine that helped a lot, especially in water levels, although it probably gave mario many headaches hehe. in comparroson to all that guesswork, heavy rain is a piece of cake. Misty, did you ever stop to consider this whole thing probably came about due to email miscomunication? instead of asking if this was so, you started off this whole unnecessary arguement.
 
Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 12:53 AM
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do

 Assumption - According to dictionary.com  - The act of taking for granted or supposing.
 
Now tell me what am I supposing?  I just outright told you that I'm going off what you've said.  I know you through Jesse Yohandy, you speak to my own fiance quite frequently and you act like I'm some stranger off the street who is new to this list.  You're never gonna meet me either.  What does that have to do with anything?  I didn't say you're happy or not about heavy rain I said you're complaining.  Which you are and you're trying to turn others off to it and covering it up with well if people don't think it's playable I don't want the backlash.  Um Yohandy, the majority of what I said about the blind gamer mindset was a generalization one I feel you're a part of but don't think I was just singling you out.  In fact I said I wasn't singling you out.  So ya know what until you read my emails without getting all upset and typing first you're making yourself look silly.  I started this little chat with you earlier in the evening..  What the hell would I have to do at 9pm?  I'm so sorry that your life is so delluded that you think that you can try to attack me with my saying I have a busy schedule so I can't help out with a FAQ for heavy rain just because you know you don't have a leg to stand on here.  I'm sorry that you felt the need to blab on about your accomplishments to try to prove to me you're a gamer.  I'm so sorry that you lack the self confidence in yourself that you can't even have a conversation with someone that you can't even see the other side of it you just have to defend yourself when really there's no defense at all.  You told people to not buy this game.  You told them that it is not playable and Brandon told me that you had your sister play it for you.  So there ya go that's where I got my info.  Heavy Rain is FAILPROOF! You cannot be stuck in this game.  All you have to do is wander around.  If you fuck it up you still get to the end.  All of these things blind gamers are familiar with and here you are not even thinking about that.  Just because you say my assumptions are random doesn't mean it's true.  You have not come back with one perfect example as to why this game is not playable and ya know what, you won't either.  I believe the crime scene is even perfectly playable because when you put the glasses on you see through the glasses it's no longer a third person view it becomes a first person and you scan everything in your sight because you're wearing the glasses.  It's just a matter of wandering around and finding stuff which I would think considering the way blind people game they should be used to.  Brandon did scan something in that crime scene he found one of the items that wasn't relevant to the case but he did find it.  Brandon just said himself no one else that has played that game seems to realize how much environmental audio there is in that game and how much it can help you.  So stop attacking me personally and start giving me some facts.  Everything I've said is relevant.  The gaming mindset of the blind is seriously an issue here.  There are people willing to give this a serious go and you who have clearly not tried are trying to stop them, detur them, supposedly warn them.  It's unfounded..you're the one assuming the game isn't playable. 
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do
From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, March 07, 2010 12:30 am
To: <brandonslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>


and you continue with your assumptions. you keep saying I think this and I think that. I don't think anything! you're the one assuming all this stuff from a random internet stranger you will never meet. how would you know if I'm letting people beat the games for me? you came over to my house and checked that out? I don't think so! you say I'm not happy about heavy rain? wrong again. I really could care less what you think my gaming accomplishments are, I know what I've done and haven't done. I won't even bother discussing it here though. in fact I don't even know why I bother writing this email. you strike me as one of these people that are stubborn to the last, and will do anything to try and prove their point, even if their point is completely off. Your random assumptions aren't helping at all, they're just making me quite annoyed. Let's see... you're gonna take some time off your extremely busy schedule to reply with more accusations?
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 11:19 PM
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do

 You're discouraging people and your last email was basically telling people outright not to try.  You may not have said "Don't try this." but you might as well have.  You think it's a piece of cake gaming for us sighted people?  It's not and that's the whole point of gaming because if it was easy we wouldn't do it and that's that simple.  There are games I've set asside because I've tried several times and have been unable to defeat a certain part of that game.  Does that mean I'm not gonna go back? No.  It means I'm taking a break.  I have yet to beat Professor Quirell in the first Harry Potter game.  I'm at the end of the game am I gonna give up because it's supposedly beyond my means when I've tried a handful of times? No.  Go ahead and state every accomplishment you'e done Yohandy but with your attitude to me you are not a gamer.  Gamers go outside their saftey boxes.  The fact of the matter is any blind person playing a game should know already they're not gonna easily beat it.  They shouldn't be looking for games that are easy to beat.  That's humilliating and degrading about as much as when patrick was on this list saying shit about games when he never plays a game beyond the setting of easy.  You talk about getting people's hopes up? You just sat here and said indirectly that the blind community is looking for easy games.  This game is failproof.  It's not like the door to the mall moves people would find it eventually just like they end up finding the shower in the first level.  Just like you go to find bad guys in any rpg game you guys do play.  You wander around till you freaking find it.  You guys rant and rave about games not being playable at all and then here you have one that is and you're still not happy!  Why? Because it doesn't have spoken dialogue in menus?  Because you don't know what buttons to press in certain situations?  Hey ya know what? They don't give us the answers outright to certain puzzles in certain games.  We sit there and stare at it or wander around just like you guys would and what do we do? We figure it the Hell out.  If everything were given to you or me or anyone else, if it was all spelled out what would the fun be?  Furthermore you just played the demo you got through it and still deemed it supposedly unplayable.  So that proves something right there.  You gave up and let someone else play it for you.  Those people on game anyone don't show when they get stuck for months because that would be humiliating and boring for the people watching.  You guys see what you want to see.  It doesn't matter when you pre ordered it Yohandy, you're letting someone else play the damn game for you.  How do you know what button combos you'd figure out?  How do you know which ones you'd need to learn? You're making a lot of assumptions based on what you've HEARD not PLAYED and there's a huge difference there.  People don't have to buy these games like I said before.  If they're smart they'll rent them.  I'm not gonna ask anyone anything.  But Brandon can say his piece here if he wishes it is his list.  He and I have been discussing it.  I'm saying what I am based on your behaviour on this list.  You're the one giving assumptions to people.  I'm a player who has played the game a bit of the way in and you know what I missed one button on the button combo to the sketch on the first level and I missed making Shawn dinner, I also didn't find his teddy bear but I'm gonna play it out because that's what I did and any blind gamer that attempts to tackle this game should do that too.  That's what the developer wanted was people to play it out and not reload in an attempt to play it perfectly.  To do what they can do.
 
I hate this general logic you people have.  I'm in the same boat as you guys because I'm a female gamer.  I'm not a target audience and in games I have to deal with crap I sometimes find tasteless.  As I said before there are some games that are beyond my reaction speed too.  So because I have a slow reaction speed by your logic it's unplayable for me so I shouldn't play.  Listen to yourself and what you've said.  Go back and read your emails.  You don't have to say things directly but it's there.  More than just you do it.  If I lost my sight tomorrow I would never take on that mentality.  It's a defeatist mentality.  I have always kept my eyes open for games I felt Brandon could play.  I'm right almost all of the time.  Matter of fact I don't think there's one I've been wrong about yet.  So sorry if I have a higher idea of your abilities than you do people.  Should I be apologizing for that?  I don't think so but there ya go it's in print if you want it.  Don't come back at me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about either.  I have a very good gift for putting myself in other people's shoes and without my glasses I am legally blind.  I would not be able to see to game very well at all either.  I can't even find my glasses if they fall on my floor because it's a dark color.  I've had to use a screen reader at points too when I haven't had my glasses or after eye doctor appointments.  So I'm not an outsider looking in..I'm someone straddling the line.
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do
From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, March 06, 2010 9:14 pm
To: <brandonslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>


Uh, I never said not to try. you accused me of a few things I never even hinted at let alone said. I actually consider myself a pretty hardcore gamer. I've gotten MK vs DC and SF 4 platinums, and I'm real close to getting platinums on rock band 2 and lego rock band. I would never tell people to give up on a game, because I don't do it myself. In fact I get a thrill if I do something I consider insane and succeed. I was just pointing out the facts, and letting people know that it wouldn't be easy. I don't want people buying heavy rain thinking oh I'm gonna get this game, and easily beat it. people won't easily complete this game, and I'm not gonna claim otherwise and get people's hopes up, and if they happen to suck at it I'll be blamed for the purchase. it'll take lots of work and motivation. do you think I'd preorder the game a month in advanced and have it delivered on release day if I was a person who gave up on things? course not. I knew exactly what I was getting into. already someone has purchased the game and hasn't played it much, and I sorta feel responsible for letting them know about HR and having them spend money on it cause I couldn't shut up about the game. I've spoken to Brandon on MSN previously. ask him if he thinks I'm the type of gamer to give up on games. You really shouldn't assume things so quickly, it's rather insulting.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:21 PM
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do

But I still did it.  You're telling people not to even try.  There's a kazillion people there anybody would be blind it's a situation where you're looking for a needle in a haystack. All you have to do is find the doors.. Until you do nothing happens Yohandy.  It's not like he wanders farther and farther.  He's across the street from the mall.  You know when you hit the escalator that makes it's own sound.  See this is the problem I have.  You guys are so frustrated with games not being playable that you don't even try.  You just say oh you have to be sighted so I can't do this.  Is this how you look at life?  Try.. Seriously try.  Don't try once and give up, try and try again.  We sighted people if we can't do something the first time because it's beyond our range of ability we keep trying.  I'm not very good with button combos but I'll be damned if I let that stop me.  I wasn't very good at shooters to the point I was afraid to play around anyone else because I'd be laughed at.  My aim was just to put it simply shit.  But now I'm really good at them. I can't tell you guys what to do but I think your outlook is very dismal and depressing.  Do you guys realize how many gamer achievements and trophies are just based on pure dumb luck?  A certain situation presenting itself and you just so happen to be in the right place at the right time?  Brandon got a trophy today in mlb for hitting a home run out in left feild into the rocks at aneheim.  He told me he didn't think he could beat krea in KOTOR 2 but I told him just try it.  You guys don't have to buy any of these games.  There's gamefly and there's blockbuster and other rental places.  Go rent them.  If you feel after you've tried the hardest you can and exhausted all options that you can't play it then fine.  But if you just try a handful of times and say I can't do this because i'm blind, that's not the spirit of any gamer I know.  I guess by using your logic i shouldn't play guitar hero on expert or god of war because i'm not very good at fast response.  I shouldn't play call of duty because i suck at war games where i have to strategize and work in stealth.  I'm an in your face gamer.  I love melee combat in left 4 dead but i still play every single one of the games I mentioned. 
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do
From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, March 06, 2010 3:04 pm
To: <brandonslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>


Misty, you just proved my point. if finding Jason was tough for you, imagine for a totally blind person? like you said there are a whole mess of people in that mall. we'll just end up walking around endlessly and he'll desperately keep searching till we get frustrated and turn off the game or happen to find him randomly. in this situation, the game will not continue even if you walk around all day. Jason will just patiently wait for you to find him before the game triggers the next scene. there are many sections like this where time won't pass unless you do what the game demands you do. A walkthrough for this game     wouldn't be particularly hard to make, except for writing up those walking parts. trials will be pretty tough as well. rest is just basically lists of possible options. it'll be time consuming though!
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 2:15 PM
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do

 Actually I played most of the mall scene "blind" for about the first like 5 minutes.  I didn't hear the dialogue about the balloon so I was trying to find a kid in that sea of people it was kinda freaky.  Then Brandon mentioned the balloon and I was like oh! Kid with a balloon kid with a balloon then I found that kid that wasn't him! I was like omg!  Now chelle stayed with him somehow it was kinda cool.  And yes while if you don't get a button press right it may affect the game later on but it does not mean that the blind cannot play this game.  Now as I said before to see all the paths the game has to offer you'd need a FAQ.  But this isn't the normal situation where you guys will get stuck and the game will not progress.  That is generally what you guys call a game that's unplayable.  So to answer people's questions about it, yes this game is playable.  And I clarified what I meant by it in previous emails.  You CAN play the game independantly.. you can get to the end of it independantly.  Can you unlock all the options to the game independantly? No but is that better than not being able to play it at all?  I'd say yeah but then again I'm not very far in the game. 
 
I also tend to be a bit crazy when it comes to games LOL!  I've had Brandon do some things he thought was impossible for him to do.  Like defeat Krea in Knights of The Old Republic 2.  He defeated Bohan for me in Heavenly Sword and he's been opening doors for me in Heavy Rain because I just can't seem to get it right.  I've even had Brandon play Left 4 Dead and while he didn't advance in the level too far, he did not die.  That's something right there! At least I thought it was cool.  Also as I said before if I have time to I'd be willing to help out with the FAQ but it would take me a long time as my time is limited.  Probably would release it by level maybe on Brandon's site.  I don't know yet.  Right now I can't say I can do it.  So I wanna wait and see if someone else does it first.  It would be better to have someone release it all at once for you than piece by piece like I would have to when time allowed.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do
From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, March 06, 2010 1:49 pm
To: <brandonslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>


Misty,
Your point is a good one for the most part, but the game won't continue in certain situations. for instance the mall scene is one of many where you need to walk around to find what you need to find. lol trying to not spoil things is hard work. haha. anyway if you just choose to stand there, nothing will happen. if it's a button sequence you're dealing with and you press nothing, an undesirable result will most likely occur that you'll end up regretting later on. if you press a wrong button, it'll have the same consequences. this game isn't made in such a way that you can just guess what to do, you have to know what you're doing. I appreciate that you're trying to help, but we gotta face facts. we'd all love to play this game independently, but unless a good faq comes out, I doubt we'll be too successful by simply guessing. I'm just grateful I have people here that can help. not everyone does.
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 10:07 AM
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do

 
 Yep that's what I'm saying.  You guys have to realize that failure with this game isn't really failure.  It doesn't stop you from seeing the rest of the game.  It continues on even if people die or you make a "wrong" choice.  There really is no right or wrong in this game.  That's the whole idea behind it.  So generally you guys say an unplayable game is one that you get stuck on and cannot advance any further due to something you have to see to continue.   If you can't then you can't continue on in the game and you'll never see the end.  With heavy rain you will see an ending regardless of what you do.  You will get through the game.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do
From: Søren_Jensen <slj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, March 06, 2010 9:19 am
To: brandonslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Okay. So you're saying this game is playable if you have a great walkthrough and if you take your time to figure it all out? I don't have any people who can help me accept for one of my friends who love games, but he's not here all the time.
Best regards
Søren Jensen
Mail & MSN:
Website:

Den Mar 5, 2010 kl. 8:00 PM skrev misty@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

Okay let me clarify here.  This game is not unplayable it's not beyond the realm of being playable for you guys.  If you find a FAQ with all the button combos they do not change.  As for the timings you would have to figure those out on your own as per usual with these things.  It's not like you'll be stuck people.  This game plays on regardless of what happens you will never be stuck.  You will need help but I don't think it goes beyond anything other than finding an FAQ.  If a guy can get help playing legend of zelda which is way harder than the stuff you have to do in heavy rain, i would say this would be a cakewalk.  I've been helping brandon play parts of heavy rain I've even failed at parts in heavy rain such as the drawing of the sketch in the first chapter.  Some doors I can't open so I have brandon do it for me.  Come on people be open minded and actually try here.  Make an effort. 
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [brandon's list] Re: Heavy Rain: What we can and can't do
From: Michael Breedlove <stirlock@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, March 05, 2010 10:26 am
To: brandonslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

This is why I don't buy too many games like this. I don't have someone
around to help me all the time, so there's no point. Plus, I pretty
much told you that this wasn't very playable on your own. Buyer
beware.

On 3/5/10, Orin <orin8722@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> After I get home from Disney, I really want to play this game, and it looks
> like the only way I'm gonna do that is with myself, since my brother got so
> disinterested quickly.
>
> I'd really hate to return it, or not play it at all, but the fact is that
> watching it on Youtube you don't see the entire thing; you see a players
> game and if I were to play it it might be totally different.
>
> Also, from what it seems, this game has nice and easy trophies. As in, just
> playing it will net you some trophies. I've watched both the GameAnyone
> walkthrough and a Youtube walkthrough. The outcomes were the same, but the
> characters doing certain things were different.
>
> Well, I certainly won't be buying a game again until I'm sure my brother
> will play it. At least a game like this. I think eventually we'd be able to
> do it but here's a problem we run into in the prolog.
>
> You can walk around the house nude or at least upstairs and the bathroom. In
> your room, when you're standing at your dresser or whatever to get drest, is
> that when the first button prompts come up? My brother did actually manage
> to get this far for me, and he didn't really tell me anything so I was
> unsure. Where he stopped and never did pick it up again, and where it gets
> good, is when Jason goes to the mall. I did manage to get through this
> scene, however my brother probably would've gotten through it a lot quicker.
> I also got through the fight with Troy, however I didn't get the trophy for
> it.
>
> And now I'm at the crime scene. And I'm kinda stuck here.
>
> I doubt anyone has any tips on where to go? Hmm. Hopefully I can get my
> brother playing somehow. I'd hate to return a kickass game just because I
> couldn't get help for it.
>
>


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