[brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts on the Specification
- From: Michael Whapples <mwhapples@xxxxxxx>
- To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:35:05 +0000
My point was, I have not had the need to read daisy documents, I haven't read a
daisy document therefore I have nothing to read such documents. Now there are
two solutions should BrailleBlaster documents be only in daisy: I need to go
and find out about a daisy reader get it and learn how to use it (quite a bit
of work just to read some help). Now as you point out by having BrailleBlaster
I would have something to read daisy documents, however you possibly end up
with a circular problem, I have a problem with BrailleBlaster therefore want to
read help, but to read help I need to use BrailleBlaster which is what I would
have the problem with.
Using HTML would be using the browser the user uses to browse the internet,
therefore they would be familiar with how to use the software to read help and
all platforms would have a viewer by default.
I am not saying don't include a daisy version of help, but I feel the default
help people would refer to would be in html.
Michael Whapples
On 10 Dec 2010, at 16:26, John J. Boyer wrote:
> Well, I've read lots of Daisy documents, both in raw form and in braille
> translations. Using BrailleBlaster you would be able to navigate through
> a Daisy document without even knowing it was such. It would be just like
> using any other word processor to read a document, except that it would
> be hopefully more accessible.
>
> What I would like to see is BrailleBlaster being used to create the help
> documents. These could then be translated to html using xslt or evet to
> pdf, using other tools.
>
> John B.
>
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 04:12:35PM +0000, Michael Whapples wrote:
>> I would say the HTML version is necessary, daisy is in my mind a marginal
>> format. What I mean by this is that even as someone who probably falls in
>> the group of people daisy was aimed at I have never read a daisy document
>> therefore this would impose a heavy learning curve for me just to read
>> BrailleBlaster's help if no HTML version was included.
>>
>> As I remember this was discussed before on this list and the outcome of that
>> was HTML would be the format for the help documents.
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 10 Dec 2010, at 16:16, Alex Jurgensen wrote:
>>
>>> Hi John B.,
>>>
>>> I also agree with you as far as distributing Braille Blaster's help with
>>> the applciation. However, I suggest that we also provide an HTML version,
>>> packaged as the operating system's help system requires, in addition to a
>>> DAISY formatd coy.
>>>
>>> This would allow us to take advantage of the built-in help systems found on
>>> the various platforms and would require very little work on our behalf.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alex,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2010-12-10, at 7:58 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Another thing I don't like is putting the help online. I think it should
>>>> be part of the BrfailleBlaster distribution and should be in the form of
>>>> simple Daisy xml files. These can be edited and even created in the
>>>> Daisy view and translated into braille and embossed. The only advantage
>>>> to opening them in the default browser would be that users could follow
>>>> links to other sites. The tutorials are already supposed to be
>>>> distributed with BrailleBlaster, so why not the entire help. The user
>>>> will be able to follow links to other parts of the documents, so there
>>>> will be no problem with an active table of contents.
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 07:19:09AM -0800, John Gardner wrote:
>>>>> So the spec needs to be trifurcated with separate pieces for the three OS?
>>>>> Maybe John B should accumulate a list of UI items that need to be
>>>>> different,
>>>>> and then I'll write up a new draft with these changes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John G
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Jurgensen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:26 PM
>>>>> To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts on the Specification
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi John G.,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I have said before, in my opinion, there is a fine line when it comes
>>>>> to
>>>>> creating a user experience that users will be familiar with.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Would it not be better then to do the recent items item differently for
>>>>> the
>>>>> different platforms.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We will already have to make several changes to the UI, if we are going to
>>>>> account for differences on the various platforms.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If the work on customizing the UI experiences for the different platforms
>>>>> is
>>>>> carried out, would it not be easy to incorporate the recent items menu
>>>>> structure into the changes we make while creating the various UIs?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me know what you think.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2010-12-09, at 9:04 PM, John Gardner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm, this is the way it is specified now. And there are certainly
>>>>> Windows
>>>>> aps that put recent documents into a sub-menu, including ViewPlus IVEO
>>>>> software. I don't think that consistency with the majority of Windows aps
>>>>> for this usage is particularly important, so unless I hear a good reason
>>>>> to
>>>>> change, I propose to leave this spec as-is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John G
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Jurgensen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:58 PM
>>>>> To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts on the Specification
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Native Mac apps seem to put recent documents in a menu item called "Open
>>>>> Recent" that comes after the "Open" menu item.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure about Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2010-12-09, at 5:09 PM, John Gardner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all, sorry I've been pretty quiet lately. But I guess I still need
>>>>> to
>>>>> take responsibility for the spec. You are right that the spec doesn't
>>>>> mention context menus. It does give a menu item for recent documents, but
>>>>> your proposal to include it at the end of the file menu is indeed the
>>>>> common
>>>>> way to do it in Windows. I'm happy to change that if it's also the way
>>>>> it's
>>>>> done in Mac and Linux aps. Advice please.
>>>>>
>>>>> I apparently missed the conversations about context menus. I'm also happy
>>>>> to expand the spec to include context menus too. Do we have a consensus
>>>>> on
>>>>> what should go there?
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:brailleblaster-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:02 AM
>>>>> To: brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts on the Specification
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, JohnG and Yuemei -- are you there???
>>>>> Who owns the spec? JohnG was the original author. Is he also the one
>>>>> to
>>>>> update it or did he hand it off to JohnB?
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree about the context menus. On windows that would go without saying
>>>>> as
>>>>>
>>>>> context menus are pervasive and very useful. In windows, there is a
>>>>> "recent
>>>>>
>>>>> documents" option in the global start menu, but it lists almost
>>>>> everything
>>>>> anywhere that is either a document or music or video. Brailleblaster's
>>>>> recent documents option could be limited only to the docs that have been
>>>>> edited by brailleblaster, right?
>>>>> An alternative is to just tack the recent brailleblaster documents at the
>>>>> end of the file menu, like what happens in many windows apps I have seen.
>>>>> Is this also prevalent on linux or mac? What will go in the recent
>>>>> documents?
>>>>>
>>>>> Another point: what should happen when a document has been transcribed
>>>>> but
>>>>> edited in the braille window by the user? Are those changes marked in
>>>>> such
>>>>> a way that a retranslation of the file won't undo it? What if the daisy
>>>>> document has changed and there needs to be a retranslation? Just
>>>>> wondering.
>>>>>
>>>>> I need to review the spec.
>>>>> --le
>>>>> The idea of putting me
>>>>> John and Mike,
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "John J. Boyer" <john.boyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: [brailleblaster] Re: Thoughts on the Specification
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I've revealed my ignorance of GUIs. I'm really a command-line
>>>>> guy and find GUIs difficult to understand. But I'm learning.
>>>>>
>>>>> After thinkikng things over I came to about the same conclusions. The
>>>>> top window should have a title bar, the menus and the status bar. The
>>>>> braille and Daisy windows would be child windows. Switching from one
>>>>> document to another would replace these windows. The print and emboss
>>>>> previews would be dialog boxes. The "Welcome screens" would also be
>>>>> dialog boxes. I think the specification might be reworded to make things
>>>>> clearer.
>>>>>
>>>>> The specification is quite detailed about the keystrokes to be used.
>>>>> These may have to be modified to conform to the usage of different
>>>>> platforms. I think this is something that we should provide for now,
>>>>> like internationalization. Putting it in later could be much more work.
>>>>> How might this be done? I think SWT provides for specifying keystrokes
>>>>> for functions.
>>>>>
>>>>> The specification says there will be an item inn the file menu for
>>>>> opening a list of recent documents. I think this would be acceptable in
>>>>> Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like the idea of a "context" menu for different views. Perhaps this
>>>>> should be added to the specification.
>>>>>
>>>>> What happened to the ViewPlus people? Wehaven't heard from them for a
>>>>> loing time.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 09:59:06AM +0000, Michael Whapples wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think having the Braille and daisy views as top level windows
>>>>>
>>>>> with there own menus would be very natural. Firstly it doesn't really
>>>>>
>>>>> fit with any other GUI application I can think of, normally they either
>>>>>
>>>>> modify available menu options depending on the current view or they grey
>>>>>
>>>>> out unavailable options. So as greyed out options are fairly "normal" to
>>>>>
>>>>> encounter I don't see why they would be confusing. Then there is the
>>>>>
>>>>> case of platforms where menus aren't actually in the window but get
>>>>>
>>>>> placed by applications in a system menu bar like in Mac OSX (NOTE: SWT
>>>>>
>>>>> will automatically handle this for you). As an example of the Mac
>>>>>
>>>>> situation, in safari the web browser, even when I go to its preferences
>>>>>
>>>>> all menu options are still there but ones which are irrelevant to
>>>>>
>>>>> preferences (eg. the option to show/hide the status bar) are greyed out.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also the idea of two top level windows being present in one application
>>>>>
>>>>> at the same time just seems odd to me, I couldn't imagine it would look
>>>>>
>>>>> right (it would probably look like two separate applications). Then what
>>>>>
>>>>> happens when there are more documents opened, your description seems to
>>>>>
>>>>> give me more top level windows and more clutter of the desktop. Then
>>>>>
>>>>> there is the situation of "I am working on a document in BrailleBlaster,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have finished on that document so I close the document but keeping
>>>>>
>>>>> BrailleBlaster open as I want to work on another document", what do I
>>>>>
>>>>> encounter at the point when BrailleBlaster has no open documents? Having
>>>>>
>>>>> the document views as child elements of a "BrailleBlaster appliccation
>>>>>
>>>>> top level window" I would be left with an empty BrailleBlaster window
>>>>>
>>>>> containing only the menus and toolbars (IE. no sub windows), allowing me
>>>>>
>>>>> to go to the menu and choose open document or new or whatever task I
>>>>>
>>>>> want to do. Also with my idea of the view, multiple documents would just
>>>>>
>>>>> lead to more sub views, the desktop only ever has one BrailleBlaster top
>>>>>
>>>>> level window.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now one thing which might be desired is a shortcut pop-up menu specific
>>>>>
>>>>> to each view. What I mean is one of those context menus which are
>>>>>
>>>>> activated by right clicking the mouse of a UI element (use the
>>>>>
>>>>> applications key or may be shift+f10 and on Mac with voiceover
>>>>>
>>>>> vo+shift+m). In these context menus only the options relevant to that
>>>>>
>>>>> element would be shown.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/12/10 04:55, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> This sounds good. My understanding was that the Daisy and Braille
>>>>>
>>>>> windows would each have their own menus. The specification doesn't say
>>>>>
>>>>> so explicitly, but it seemed reasonable, since some things would be
>>>>>
>>>>> possible in one window and some things in another. If the Daisy and
>>>>>
>>>>> Braille windows are embedded in a top window with the menus, status bar
>>>>>
>>>>> and toolbar, the grayed-out options could be confusing and frustrating
>>>>>
>>>>> for the user. Is this actually the way it will be?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So the print and embosser previews are basically big dialog boxes. I
>>>>>
>>>>> don't remember anyone saying they should be open continually. They are
>>>>>
>>>>> opened when needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think BrailleBlsster should display multiple documents
>>>>>
>>>>> simultaneously, since it already has two views for each document.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather, when a user switched to another document these view would be
>>>>>
>>>>> changed for that document.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Daisy and Braille windows should prbably be called views instead,
>>>>>
>>>>> especially if they don't contain their own menus.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 08:45:53PM +0000, Michael Whapples wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We seem to be getting a whole jumble of things here. A window is a very
>>>>>
>>>>> generic thing. A dialog is a type of window, normally used to show
>>>>>
>>>>> messages or let users select options. A dialog is not embedded in the
>>>>>
>>>>> top level window but can be such that it prevents the user going back to
>>>>>
>>>>> the main window. A dialog might not cover the main application top level
>>>>>
>>>>> window. Then there are child windows (they may have another name) which
>>>>>
>>>>> usually is embedded into the top level window. These may be used for
>>>>>
>>>>> multiple documents (eg. MS Word has been known to work like this I don't
>>>>>
>>>>> know about their latest version). Finally then there are what I am
>>>>>
>>>>> calling a top level window, these don't have any other window containing
>>>>>
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My feeling is:
>>>>>
>>>>> * BrailleBlaster will have a top level window containing the menus and
>>>>>
>>>>> such like which are common to all situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> * The daisy viewer and Braille viewers will be child windows or may be
>>>>>
>>>>> even panes within a child window or may be this will all work on the tab
>>>>>
>>>>> idea. Anyway the main idea is these will be embedded into the top level
>>>>>
>>>>> window.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Print and preview will be dialog boxes as these are both actions (IE.
>>>>>
>>>>> I go to print/emboss a document or I go and view how it will be
>>>>>
>>>>> printed). I see no reason why print preview would need to be open
>>>>>
>>>>> continually.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Whapples
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08/12/10 20:13, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never actually looked at a print preview window. Has anyone seen
>>>>>
>>>>> an
>>>>>
>>>>> embosser preview window? I would think that programs would handle
>>>>>
>>>>> preview by opening a temporary window that either hides the existing
>>>>>
>>>>> window or minimizes them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 12:27:33PM -0600, qubit wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding What happens to the windows when a print preview is active:
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if opening a new window is a good idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am growing to like one feature in eclipse's UI: eclipse will cycle
>>>>>
>>>>> through
>>>>>
>>>>> all the various windows if you hold control and type F7 repeatedly.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has a lot of rather busy windows. I wonder what it looks like to a
>>>>>
>>>>> sighted person.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As for print preview, I have no idea what to do if you are embossing a
>>>>>
>>>>> document. The image in the braille window doesn't necessarily look
>>>>>
>>>>> like
>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> output of the device. Do the various embossers provide any kind of
>>>>>
>>>>> API
>>>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>> knowing what the braille will look like?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, if viewing it on screen, you are further limited by the display
>>>>>
>>>>> capabilities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting question. But do you really want there to be a hard coded
>>>>>
>>>>> window for print preview, print and emboss? Couldn't it just be like
>>>>>
>>>>> most
>>>>>
>>>>> apps that put a command for print and emboss and print preview in the
>>>>>
>>>>> file
>>>>>
>>>>> menu? That could bring up a dialog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just wondering.
>>>>>
>>>>> --le
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "John J. Boyer"<john.boyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>>>>> To:<brailleblaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 9:24 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: [brailleblaster] Thoughts on the Specification
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have just reread the specification carefully. It certainly hangs
>>>>>
>>>>> together better for me than at the beginning. Here are some thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a menu item for opening a list of recent documents. These
>>>>>
>>>>> documents should be on the menu, just below the exit choice, as they
>>>>>
>>>>> are
>>>>>
>>>>> ikn most word processors.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The ability to open recent documents means that the users will want
>>>>>
>>>>> MDI.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately, this is not hard to implement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We may need a third window for each document for print and embosser
>>>>>
>>>>> previews. What happens to the Daisy and Braille windows when a preview
>>>>>
>>>>> is chosen? Are they minimized?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>>>
>>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>>>
>>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex Jurgensen,
>>>>>
>>>>> VoiceOver Trainer,
>>>>>
>>>>> ASquared21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org <http://www.vipbc.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex Jurgensen,
>>>>>
>>>>> VoiceOver Trainer,
>>>>>
>>>>> ASquared21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org <http://www.vipbc.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
>>>> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>>>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>>>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>>>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Alex Jurgensen,
>>> VoiceOver Trainer,
>>> ASquared21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>> Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org
>>>
>>
>
> --
> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
> Abilitiessoft, Inc.
> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
> Madison, Wisconsin USA
> Developing software for people with disabilities
>
>
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