[bct] Let's be very careful when talking about other people on this list

  • From: "Neal Ewers" <neal.ewers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:30:58 -0600

The messages below do not mention a specific person, but it would not
take a rocket scientist for this person or any of her friends to figure
it out.  And how do we know that she or some of her friends are not
actually on the list.  Of course, we don't.  However, I would caution
all of us to be very careful about making statements such as the one in
the message below quoted here.  "this person is very difficult. I
actually think she may have some form of personality or psychological
disorder."  I wouldn't want that kind of personal slander on a public
list to come back to haunt any of us.  I'm just trying to play it safe.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say things like, "And what if
there is a person with perceived personality disorders who does X.  At
least, the person's anonymity would be maintained.  Realize again, I
know we haven't mentioned any names, but by talking about a client in a
public forum, you have come quite close.

Neal


-----Original Message-----
From: blindcooltech-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blindcooltech-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tim Cross
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:55 PM
To: blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bct] Re: Making things cross disability accessible


Hi Darrell,

we are trying to do that, but this person is very difficult. I actually
think she may have some form of personality or psychological disorder as
she is a very very difficult person to work with. In the end,
unfortunately, she will undoubtably be the one who loses out on getting
adequate assistance. 

I guess its a bit like the old 'you can lead a horse to water' analogy.

Tim


Darrell Shandrow writes:
 > Hi Tim,
 > 
 > Is there any chance that you could explain to her that while she
quibbles 
 > for things she doesn't absolutely need, others lose their very
ability to 
 > put food on their tables over relatively minor accomodations that
could, but 
 > will not, be made!  I think some perspective is healthy in this
case...  :-)  > 
 > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
 > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!  >
A+, CSSA, Network+!  > Visit http://www.petitiononline.com/captcha and
sign the Google Word 
 > Verification Accessibility Petition today!
 > Information should be accessible to us without need of translation by

 > another person.
 > Blind Access Journal blog and podcast:
http://www.blindaccessjournal.com  > ----- Original Message ----- 
 > From: "Tim Cross" <tcross@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
 > To: <blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
 > Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:54 PM
 > Subject: [bct] Re: Making things cross disability accessible  > 
 > 
 > > Hi Darrell,
 > >
 > > thats the position I've been taking. In many cases, the text she
wants  > > is already in electronic format, but without the fonts and
colours she  > > wants. I've been suggesting that as it would cost so
much to create a  > > copy with the special colours she wants, this is
not feasible and have  > > suggested and even demonstrated software
which would allow her to  > > enlarge the text and set the background
and forground colours, either  > > by a line, couple of lines or whole
screen. Unfortunately, this is  > > where things become difficult as she
is not prepared to even consider  > > such a solution - it has to be
exactly as she wants it and no  > > negotiation or compromise is
acceptable. There mere mention of such  > > things gets her rushing off
letters to every anti-discrimination body  > > she can think of.  > >  >
> I wouldn't mind so much if she would give these suggestions a try, but
> > refusal to even consider them is irritating to say the least. Its  >
> actually even really difficult to find out the exact reason why she  >
> wants things the way she is demanding them - simply asking her to  > >
explain makes her defensive.  > >  > > I'm actually used to this sort of
thing to some extent after so many  > > years in IT. People often come
to you with a solution and are  > > unwilling to explain exactly what
the problem is. I am often saying to  > > people, "Bring me the problem,
not the solution". In IT, its common  > > for people who don't have a
lot of knowledge or experience in the  > > field to believe they know
the solution. It often takes a lot of work  > > to extract exactly what
the problem is they want solved and a lot of  > > the time, you know of
far better solutions than the one they have come  > > up with. The irony
is that if you just accept their proposed solution  > > and give it to
them, nine times out of ten, they will be back in a  > > month abusing
you for providing a solution which doesn't work  > > properly.  > >  > >
Tim  > >  > > Darrell Shandrow writes:  > > > Hi Tim,  > > >  > > >
Couldn't she just take the electronic copy and employ software like 
 > > > Magic or
 > > > ZoomText to achieve the results she needs?  Seems to me the big
deal is  > > > providing the electronic text.  Once done, it is
accessible to assistive  > > > technology, to which it is all up to the
user to employ effectively in 
 > > > order
 > > > to get the job done.
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
 > > > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> > > A+, CSSA, Network+!  > > > Visit
http://www.petitiononline.com/captcha and sign the Google Word  > > >
Verification Accessibility Petition today!  > > > Information should be
accessible to us without need of translation by  > > > another person.
> > > Blind Access Journal blog and podcast:
http://www.blindaccessjournal.com  > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
 > > > From: "Tim Cross" <tcross@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
 > > > To: <blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
 > > > Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 1:15 AM
 > > > Subject: [bct] Making things cross disability accessible  > > >
> > >  > > > >  > > > > This is a very very difficult area. Just this
week, I've had to deal  > > > > with someone who has extremely complex
requirements and its proving  > > > > very difficult to satisfy her
needs. She also has a rather unfortunate  > > > > attitude and
personality which has not helped.  > > > >  > > > > This woman has
multiple disabilities, including low vision and hearing  > > > > loss.
She wants to enrol in a degree, but all the texts have to be  > > > >
provided in electronic form. Thats OK. However, she needs a specific  >
> > > font and the most difficult part, a very complex colour scheme in
> > > > which specific colours are used for various parts of the text
and each  > > > > alternating paragraph has to have a different colour.
> > > >  > > > > All of this is possible from a technology perspective.
However the  > > > > cost of creating the texts start at $30,000 per
text. This cost has to  > > > > be paid by the institution. The degree
will take a minimum of 18  > > > > course units and some units have
multiple texts. The institution will  > > > > therefore have to spend a
minimum of $540000. This is a lot of money  > > > > for a small
University to spend on just one student.  > > > >  > > > > Part of the
issue here is that it appears the demands this woman is  > > > > setting
out for the text format is a bit excessive - she is able to  > > > >
communicate and read electronic communications without the colour  > > >
> scheme fine. there is no argument the colours do make things easier  >
> > > for her, but at what point does this level of ease become  > > > >
unreasonable?  > > > >  > > > > My view has always been that we are
entitled to reasonable access and  > > > > that some of the
responsibility to deal with things has to fall on the  > > > > person
with the disability. Of course, you have the problem of  > > > >
agreement on what is to be considered reasonable. In this case, I  > > >
> beleive this woman is being unreasonable because she can access the  >
> > > text and read it without the complex colour scheme. There are even
> > > > software solutions such a zoom text which will allow you to set
the  > > > > colours interactively, but apparently, this is not
sufficient.  > > > >  > > > > the general feeling I get from trying to
find a solution for this  > > > > woman is that she is not prepared to
compromise or work with the  > > > > system to find a resonable solution
and I suspect this will all end up  > > > > in court. The basic problem
I think is attitude. This woman believes  > > > > the world owes her and
everything has to be changed to accomodate her  > > > > needs and she
should not be required to accomodate the world. I think  > > > > she is
a rather angry and upset person who is constantly frustrated  > > > >
because so much of the world is not structured to meet her fairly  > > >
> unique requirements.  > > > >  > > > > My personal beleif is there is
no point in having some sort of  > > > > underlying expectation the
world is supposed to be fair. Its actually  > > > > quite a harsh unfair
world and each individual is only a very small  > > > > and rather
insignificant part of it. We do have the right to expect  > > > >
reasonable accomodation to our needs, but to a large extent, its down  >
> > > to each individual to find solutions.  > > > >  > > > > Normally,
I don't have to deal with this sort of problem - its not  > > > >
actually my area of work or expertise. To some extent, I think I've  > >
> > been brought in simply because I have a background in technology and
> > > > programming and unfortunately, because I'm the only blind person
> > > > employed by the institution and therefore must have some sort of
> > > > secret knowledge or understanding. I find this sort of thing
quite  > > > > unfortunate and feel it probably does more damange to
people with  > > > > disabilities than anything else. If this University
had encountered  > > > > this woman before I applied for a job there, I
suspect I would never  > > > > have gotten my job as the University
would have been concerned  > > > > employing me would cost too much. As
it was, there was some concern  > > > > when they did employ me and
since there has been a number of times  > > > > that its been mentioned
how surprised they have been regarding how  > > > > little it has cost
to employ me and that the cost has been proven to  > > > > have been
well worth it. In fact, now they keep trying to push things  > > > > at
me.  > > > >  > > > > some of you are probably thinking that because of
anti-discrimination  > > > > laws, they wouldn't have been able to not
employ me due to the costs  > > > > of having to provide adaptive
technology or workplace modifications -  > > > > but I find that a
totally naive opinion. All that anti-discrimination  > > > > laws can
really do is reduce the amount of obvious discrimination. If  > > > > an
employer knows the law says you cannot refuse to employ someone due  > >
> > to their disability, they will just say they are not employing you
for  > > > > some other reason. So, to some extent, it hides the
discrimination.  > > > > this doesn't mean the laws don't do some good,
they do, but they only  > > > > really help in very obvious
discrimination cases. A lot of the time,  > > > > the more incidious
discrimination is not obvious and the law does not  > > > > help. In
these cases, education, positive role models and first-hand  > > > >
experience is very important and thats why I think its important as  > >
> > someone with a disability that I do whatever I can to find solutions
> > > > and work within this complex and difficult world.  > > > >  > >
> > Tim  > > > >  > > > > Neal Ewers writes:  > > > > > Vince, You said,
"People with visual stress, dyslexics, those with  > > > > > limited
movement and deaf  > > > > > people all present different needs too, so
it's no wonder things 
 > > > > > aren't
 > > > > > quite perfect yet!"
 > > > > >
 > > > > > What can sometimes be troubling is the hard work that goes in
to 
 > > > > > making
 > > > > > something cross disability accessible.  There seem to be
people in 
 > > > > > each
 > > > > > disability community who will work their heads off to get
something 
 > > > > > they
 > > > > > need even if it means that the product is not accessible to
people 
 > > > > > who
 > > > > > have other disabilities.  And there are some disability
groups that 
 > > > > > seem
 > > > > > to have more clout than others.  Why, for example, does the
Randolph  > > > > > Shepard act say that people who are blind have first
rights to 
 > > > > > vending
 > > > > > stands.  In years past, those stands were quite small and
often sold  > > > > > candy, smokes, etc.  Now, some of them are large
food service  > > > > > establishments.  So, why is someone who is blind
more qualified to 
 > > > > > run
 > > > > > such an establishment than someone who is in a wheel chair,
or deaf, 
 > > > > > or
 > > > > > has no arms?  But you can be assured, that if congress
decided to 
 > > > > > give
 > > > > > other disability groups equal rights to this perk, a lot of
people 
 > > > > > who
 > > > > > are blind would be ready to fight that change with all their
might. 
 > > > > > So,
 > > > > > now you see how hard it is to work with groups of people with

 > > > > > varying
 > > > > > disabilities.  I did this at Trace all the time, and it could
be 
 > > > > > some of
 > > > > > the most divisive posturing I have ever seen.
 > > > > >
 > > > > >
 > > > > > Neal
 > > > > >
 > > > > >
 > > > > > -----Original Message-----
 > > > > > From: blindcooltech-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 > > > > > [mailto:blindcooltech-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Vince 
 > > > > > Thacker
 > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:41 PM
 > > > > > To: blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 > > > > > Subject: [bct] Re: FW: Introducing DbDialog: a free,
accessible 
 > > > > > database
 > > > > > manager
 > > > > >
 > > > > >
 > > > > > Neal,
 > > > > >
 > > > > > I have to admit accessibility is a darned complicated theing,
as I 
 > > > > > know
 > > > > > from
 > > > > > trying to create accessible web pages and failing miserably 
 > > > > > sometimes.
 > > > > > People with visual stress, dyslexics, those with limited
movement 
 > > > > > and
 > > > > > deaf
 > > > > > people all present different needs too, so it's no wonder
things 
 > > > > > aren't
 > > > > > quite perfect yet!
 > > > > >
 > > > > > Vnice.
 > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
 > > > > > From: "Neal Ewers" <neal.ewers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
 > > > > > To: <blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
 > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:32 PM
 > > > > > Subject: [bct] Re: FW: Introducing DbDialog: a free,
accessible 
 > > > > > database
 > > > > >
 > > > > > manager
 > > > > >
 > > > > >
 > > > > > > Vince, you say, "When I run it I don't see any scaleable
fonts, 
 > > > > > > any
 > > > > > > color contrasts."
 > > > > > >
 > > > > > > Thank you for pointing out that many people who may be on
this 
 > > > > > > list
 > > > > > > may have some limited vision.  We often get so rapped up in
speech 
 > > > > > > and
 > > > > >
 > > > > > > braille that we forget about those who need color contrast,
large  > > > > > > text, etc.  Thanks for keeping us on our toes.  > > >
> > >  > > > > > > Neal  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >
-----Original Message-----  > > > > > > From:
blindcooltech-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 > > > > > > [mailto:blindcooltech-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Vince 
 > > > > > > Thacker
 > > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:52 AM
 > > > > > > To: blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 > > > > > > Subject: [bct] Re: FW: Introducing DbDialog: a free,
accessible  > > > > > > database manager  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > >
> > > > I've had a quick look at this and have to ask my usual question,

 > > > > > > "What
 > > > > >
 > > > > > > do you mean by accessible?"
 > > > > > >
 > > > > > > When I run it I don't see any scaleable fonts, any colour 
 > > > > > > contrasts or
 > > > > >
 > > > > > > even a single Tooltip.  Every time I press anything I get
an error  > > > > > > message that  > > > > > > is basically a line of
code with ifs and thens.  > > > > > >  > > > > > > Very ppor job in my
opinion.  > > > > > > Vince.  > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Jamie Pauls" <jamiepauls@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  > > > > > >
To: <accesscomp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  > > > >
> > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:35 PM  > > > > > > Subject:
[bct] FW: Introducing DbDialog: a free, accessible 
 > > > > > > database
 > > > > > > manager
 > > > > > >
 > > > > > >
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
 > > > > > >> From: blindtech@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
 > > > > > >> [mailto:blindtech@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
 > > > > >
 > > > > > >> Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
 > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:40 PM
 > > > > > >> To: blindtech@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 > > > > > >> Subject: Introducing DbDialog: a free, accessible database

 > > > > > >> manager
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >> Now available at
 > > > > > >> http://www.empowermentzone.com/dbdsetup.exe
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >> Since developing database applications under DOS in the
early 
 > > > > > >> 1990s,
 > > > > > >> I have had a goal of developing them under Windows.  Thus,
I am  > > > > > >> pleased to announce  > > > > > >> DbDialog:  a free
database manager.  It achieves a high level of 
 > > > > > >> both
 > > > > > >> functionality and accessibility by exploiting capabilities
of  > > > > > standard  > > > > > >> Windows controls.  > > > > > >>  >
> > > > >> The program supports tables of records in Microsoft Access 
 > > > > > >> format.
 > > > > > >> Once a table is defined, records may be created, modified,

 > > > > > >> browsed,
 > > > > > >> searched, and output in an efficient manner.  Initially,
sample  > > > > > >> tables  > > > > > >  > > > > > >> are defined for
tracking contacts, events, and albums.  Complete  > > > > > >>
documentation is available in an HTML file with structured 
 > > > > > >> headings.
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >> I welcome feedback and contributions toward the
improvement of  > > > > > >> DbDialog.  > > > > > >>  > > > > > >>
Regards,  > > > > > >> Jamal  > > > > > >>  > > > > > >>  > > > > > >>
BlindTech is a service of MosenExplosion.com. To find out about 
 > > > > > >> the
 > > > > > >> other e-mail lists we run, please visit us on the web at
> > > > > >> http://www.MosenExplosion.com Yahoo! Groups Links  > > > >
> >>  > > > > > >> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
 > > > > > >>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blindtech/
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 > > > > > >>    blindtech-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
 > > > > > >>    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >>
 > > > > > >> --
 > > > > > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
 > > > > > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
 > > > > > >> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/265 - Release
Date:  > > > > > > 2/20/2006  > > > > > >>  > > > > > >>  > > > > > >  >
> > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > >
>  > > > > > > --  > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.  > > > > > > Version: 7.1.375 /
Virus Database: 267.15.12/265 - Release Date:  > > > > > 2/20/2006  > >
> > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > >
>  > > > >  > > >  > > >  > >  > > 
 > 
 > 


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