[bct] Re: Do Not Lead Others To Believe There's No God

  • From: Chris Skarstad <toonhead5@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: blindcooltech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:49:52 -0600

Hi Sam

I'm afraid that you've been sucked into this whole religion debate.
Did you notice that it came out of absolutely nowhere?
This idiot is spoofing people and putting other people's names on messages that they did not write. Don't get sucked in dude.

At 08:24 PM 3/29/2006, you wrote:
I do request, however, that you not lead others into the mindset that their is no God.

If no gods can be shown to exist, if religion is little more than charlatans taking advantage of the gullible, then why would it be a good thing to further
this deception by remaining silent? If atheism is about facing the truth, then why would we want to lie to our fellow-humans?

Meanwhile, this message is for those who already realize that religion is, for the most part, a hoax and a fraud. We don't care what people believe and
are not out to de-convert any theists. Theists believe the way they do for what they think are valid reasons, and who are we to tell people what to do
with their lives?

We only ask three things: (1) do not enforce your superstitions on us or expect us to support them through government endorsement, funding, or tax exemption;
(2) do not think for one minute that any religious view -- or religion in general -- is above criticism: if you choose to express your views in the public
forum (which is your right), you can expect our response; (3) do not degrade us or discriminate against us for not going along with the utter madness that
is religion.

Finally, we don't necessarily assert that no gods exist, but simply have not encountered any argument for the existence of gods that holds water. This is
atheism, not the assertion that no gods exist. Some do assert that no gods exist, but most of us don't even care, having decided long ago that it's not
worth worrying about. If it became clear that gods exist -- as clear as the Sun, as precisely as a times table, as universally experienced as gravitation
-- then you can be sure we'd all believe in an instant. But that is not the case: if there is a god, He has hidden Himself from view and thus cannot possibly
care if we know about Him or not. So, most of us would sooner be left alone about it.

However, I do wish the best for you and I would like to just let you know that Jesus still loves you... even if you have not yet discovered Him.

You are welcome to make the case that what you say here is the truth. Since you are the one claiming that a "Jesus" exists, it is your responsibility to
bring forth a strong argument. If you cannot do this, I have no business believing you. Contrawise, it is not my responsibility to disprove your claim,
because it is impossible to disprove a negative existential claim (a claim that a thing does not exist). Since I have the disadvantage in this discussion,
it is your job to come forth with evidence and strong arguments, and mine simply to listen and either show why I find your arguments are worthy of my assent
(wherein I convert to theism) or to show why your arguments are insufficient to warrant my believing they are true. If you cannot give me sufficient reason
to believe that you're telling the truth, I remain an atheist -- I remain a man who lacks a belief that gods exist.

If you are correct in your belief that there is no God, then when you die you will have lost nothing. If you are incorrect, however, you will have lost
all eternity and with such websites you may have taken others with you as well.

Do I get you right?

Is gambling on a proposition a valid way to determine if someone is telling the truth?

And should I believe that someone is telling the truth simply because if it turns out that they are right, I would enjoy pleasure and avoid pain?

I don't think so.

I have much more respect for truth than you suggest here. You cannot guilt-trip me into believing something is true or false: you must show something to
be true or I have every reason to believe that you're lying to me -- especially when it comes to matters of religion, whose history is fraught with opportunists,
hucksters, political power plays, frauds, deceit, trickery, slight of hand, and many other things which cast doubt on the entire enterprise of religion
and superstition.

I do not ask that you change your beliefs. All I ask is that you show respect for others beliefs.

I do not respect the beliefs of the Ku Klux Klan, but I understand why some people would come to believe how the Bible teaches them to think that Noah placed
a curse on Ham's son, subjecting all his offspring to human slavery and subjugation forever.

I don't respect the beliefs that prompt men to harass or dominate or subjugate women -- just because they are women -- but I can understand how some men
would come to believe that the Bible teaches that the woman is subject to the man.

I don't respect the beliefs that lead people to trash Planet Earth, but I can understand why some people think that the Bible teaches that Jesus will return
any time now, so we don't really have to be careful with our environment because Jesus will take care of everything when He comes back.

I don't respect the beliefs behind Communism or enforced communal living, but I understand why some people believe that the Bible teaches that the early
church members gave all their possessions to the Apostles and lived as one big family with nobody owning anything of themselves -- and two people were
even supposedly struck dead by the Holy Ghost for holding back a small amount of money from that first Christian commune.

I do not respect these beliefs. There are many beliefs that I think are ludicrous -- laughable, even -- and there are other beliefs that I think are downright
dangerous. People who believe that it is okay to kill or rob or otherwise menace certain types of people sometimes act according to those beliefs.

I cannot and will not stop somebody from believing a certain way. I will not try to talk a Christian into becoming an atheist. I would just as soon that
person remain a Christian, though I know what it's like to be a Christian and I would never do that to myself again.

However, if someone's beliefs about what is right and what is wrong prompts them to do something illegal, I think it is only right to hold that person accountable
for breaking the law.

Also, and most importantly, if somebody holds a belief (such as a belief that Jesus is God) and keeps that belief private, the belief is none of my business.
Were it not for the fact that so many people have told me that Jesus is God and tried to convince me that they're telling the truth, I would never have
paid attention to the Christian religion and would not have anything to say about it.

However, thousands of people have come up to me and told me that I must believe the Christian religion. They have given me various reasons ranging from
threats that I'll burn in Hell if I don't believe, to enticements that I'll enjoy bliss in Heaven if I do believe, to pointing out the marvelous workings
of the human body as evidence that an intelligent designer has been at work.

These people have entered into the public forum with their god-claims.

Once somebody takes their private religion and turns that religion into a set of public claims, those claims then become subject to scrutiny and criticism.
Scrutiny is the only way we can tell if somebody has told us the truth. Criticism is the main way to publicize the fact that we find fault with certain
claims, that those claims are not necessarily true, and that people had better watch out and do their own research before jumping headlong into a decision.

It is wrong to treat religious views as sacred and pretending that we ought not criticize those views. If you have the right to tell me why you think a
god exists -- especially if you tell me that I ought to believe this way too -- then I have every right to tell you why I think your claim is not something
that I am willing to go along with.

And, I have every duty to tell you why I don't go along with your claim.

This is particularly true because this is a magazine for atheists, and our role here is to provide the skeptical viewpoint. There are hundreds if not thousands
of churches where I live but only one atheist group and one Humanist group. There are thousands of hours of Christian television and radio programming
but only a half-hour per week for the atheists and another half-hour a week for the humanists -- and only on cable. There are thousands of Christian magazines
and newsletters and websites, but only a few dozen major atheistic websites.

Our magazine is not here to try to talk people out of their faith. However, many people grow up and realize that the faith of their fathers is a lie. There
are no programs to help these people, and they make a lot of mistakes. We endure bigotry from every side, and Positive Atheism Magazine cannot be faulted
for wanting to change these situations. That's why we exist and that's what we do. If you thought we did differently, you are mistaken. That's all we're
about is helping atheists to cope in this Christian-dominated world that makes being an atheist and expressing one's honest opinions very tough indeed.

I will never try to talk you out of your faith, but you must understand that in exchange for this dignity, you cannot expect me to remain silent when someone
tries to tell me that gods exist. If you care enough to tell me about something that you see is good, you ought to respect the fact that if I see something
wrong with what you said, I feel that it is my moral duty to point this out to you.

And you certainly have no right to expect me to remain silent simply because your views are religious views. I will respect the fact that you believe them,
and I will try to understand why you would believe that way, but I do not have to respect the beliefs themselves if I think those beliefs are foolish,
dangerous, or wrong.

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