[bksvol-discuss] Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
- From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 23:20:08 -0800 (PST)
When I volunteered in the learning lab at my daughters' school, I learned that
there are a variety of learning disabilities. Some people cannot learn from
seeing, e.g., what's on the blackboard--or even perhaps in books; they learn
better when books or notes are read to them--through hearing. With others it's
the opposite. They can't learn from from lectures or what's told them. They
learn from seeing. Then there are memory problems. I worked with a young man
in 6th grade who was having trouble with math--basic math addition,
multiplication, etc. By Friday he was able so do the problems we're talking
really basic, not word problems--but by the time he came back to school on
Monday he'd forgotten everything.
Cindy
Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and books-being-scanned
list available at sites below
Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List
Books Being Scanned List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> From: Valerie Maples <vlmaples@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 8:38 AM
> Funny that you ask that, Bob.
> The answer is sometimes. They are now differentiating
> what dyslexia actually is, so the true answer is probably
> soon to be no when they reclassify some people previously
> labeled dyslexic as other severe learning disability
> (SLD). Mine is an organizational, retrieval problem,
> but when I am fatigued, I display the transposition errors
> most commonly associated with dyslexia.
>
> I had a friend who was dyslexia and then later lost his
> vision due to RP and he was too frustrated with braille and
> instead had things read to him to minimize his
> frustration. Although he had successfully learned to
> accommodate his dyslexia while sighted, it was overwhelming
> to him after he lost his sight.
>
> Blind form birth I cannot speak to, but I do know you can
> have an SLD with perceptual/retrieval or translation
> issues.
>
> HTH!
> Valerie
>
>
> On 11 05, 2009, at 7:11 AM, Bob wrote:
>
> > Okay, this is off topic, but I gotta ask:
> >
> > Can a blind person be dyslexic? Then does reading
> Braille become a problem?
> >
> > Or, as I suspect, dyslexia is a problem in the visual
> section of the brain which cuts most of us out altogether.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > boB
> >
> > "We know the future will outlast all of us, but I
> believe that all of us will live on in the future we make,"
> > Senator Edward M. Kennedy
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Friedman"
> <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:20 AM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >
> >
> >> Hi, Valerie, I have a sister who is slightly
> aphasic and slightly dyslexic.
> >> Also, my father must have had dyslexia because
> reading was a slow process
> >> for him. Unfortunately for his generation,
> teachers would think he was slow
> >> and would have never heard of dyslexia. The way my
> mother described my
> >> sister's condition was to say that it had
> something to do with feedback in
> >> her brain. She has problems with fractions, and
> she has a hard time
> >> pronouncing certain words. She is now getting
> stuff from my regional
> >> library, i.e., Braille Institute of America
> because, as she tells me, she
> >> can comprehend some books better if she hears them
> being read to her rather
> >> than looking at the book in front of her. I look
> forward to the time when
> >> people are taught like they're human beings,
> rather than using a
> >> cookie-cutter approach as if our brains can be
> crammed with information any
> >> old way as if we were like cars made on an
> assembly line. Regards, Kim.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Valerie Maples
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:37 PM
> >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >>
> >> Hi, Evan!
> >>
> >> Because I work with emerging literacy, and a
> secondary focus on learning
> >> disabilities, visual presentation is important in
> building skills. Typically
> >> speaking in teaching a child how to orient
> themselves to a table of contents
> >> the chapter number is on the left, usually
> followed by a couple of spaces or
> >> a tab, then the title of the chapter, and then
> usually some distance away
> >> from it on the right margin of the page is the
> actual page number. By making
> >> the three elements of a single line distinct, you
> teach children how to scan
> >> in not only a horizontal linear pattern, but a
> vertical pattern as well.
> >> When there is too much information into smaller
> space children with learning
> >> disabilities tend to mangle the information and
> not be able to retrieve the
> >> details. It can make it more difficult for an
> adult with dyslexia because
> >> they can then have a greater chance of confusing
> the numbers with letters.
> >> There are also a number of visual learning
> disabilities were spatial
> >> relationships are important. By controlling how
> the information is formatted
> >> you improve the odds of a child successfully
> learning how to not only
> >> differentiate but digest the information that is
> present.
> >>
> >> It is incredibly difficult to teach advanced
> functions of computer searching
> >> to kids who have these learning disabilities since
> they often have problems
> >> but spelling correctly or with number order. It is
> also an additional skill
> >> layered on top of another skill at you are trying
> to create, which can be
> >> difficult. I am sure I am not making much sense,
> but I can tell you as an
> >> adult with dyslexia, if the information is too
> close together, I take about
> >> five times as long to sort the information.
> Ideally there should be a much
> >> greater distance and the page numbers should
> online in a column, but
> >> separation of any type is better than the same
> thing used to indicate a
> >> change of words.
> >>
> >> I am trying to learn as much as I can about why
> presentation matters and how
> >> it is effected by those who listen as well as
> those who read in Braille, and
> >> I don't want anyone to think that I am being a
> bully and constantly
> >> reshaping arguments about formatting, but because
> so much of Bookshare's
> >> current efforts are directed toward their
> educational grant, I think we do
> >> ourselves well to continue to meet the needs of
> these kids as best we can.
> >> If we strip all of the useful tools of the visual
> presentation in effort to
> >> "standardize", we may remove the ability of some
> students to develop
> >> independent literacy skills outside of software.
> Until our society has moved
> >> to a format where all text is available
> electronically, books, newspapers,
> >> and snail mail remain a reality that we need to
> teach students to develop
> >> techniques to handle. I am all for tools of
> compromise as long as meaningful
> >> information can still be derived for the target
> populations. Individuals
> >> with visual impairments have had alternate formats
> for decades, but it
> >> really is in its infancy for students with more
> severe physical disabilities
> >> or learning disabilities.
> >>
> >> In truth, many texts would be better handled if
> they could be formatted both
> >> ways, instead of a unified format that is then
> translated. Since that is
> >> completely unlikely to happen, the next best thing
> we can have is
> >> considerate dialogues trying to find common
> ground. Thank you for allowing
> >> me to participate in these discussions.
> >>
> >> I have to get Nichole ready for bed, so please
> forgive me if there are any
> >> speech recognition errors in this long missive. I
> promise you it is better
> >> than anything that I could have pecked out and
> taken an hour to correct.
> >> Wink.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >> Valerie
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> >>> Behalf Of EVAN REESE
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:33 PM
> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of
> Contents
> >>>
> >>> Judy, I can't understand a thing you're
> saying. You are completely
> >>> incoherent. Just kidding.
> >>>
> >>> Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's
> word that it is
> >>> difficult to read a page number in a TOC with
> only a space between it
> >>> and the title, although I will admit that I
> don't understand why this
> >>> should be so. If
> >> you
> >>> are reading the title of something, you would
> just see the page number
> >> after
> >>> it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking
> for information, not for
> >>> argumentation. If it is difficult to read a
> number with only a space
> >> between
> >>> it and a word, why is it not equally difficult
> to read words with only
> >>> a single space between them? As I said, I am
> looking for insight, not
> >> doubting
> >>> the word of those who actually read with
> sight.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for any help you can give to further my
> knowledge on this.
> >>>
> >>> Evan
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of
> Contents
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >I agree with Valerie. It is a
> torture to figure out tables of
> >>> >contents visually with just the single
> space. I'm perfectly happy
> >>> >with an
> >> ellipsis
> >>> >instead of the space, as an idea. I
> can't see any way that trying to
> >>> >figuour out how many periods to put in to
> make the right margin on
> >>> >each line, as is done with a printed book,
> will make sense or be
> >>> >anything but
> >> a
> >>> >nightmare to do if you're blind.
> Having an ellipsis in makes it
> >> perfectly
> >>> >readable for me visually.
> >>> >
> >>> > Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had
> some major dental surgery
> >>> > today
> >> and
> >>> > we had to use enough anesthesia to bring
> an elephant down. So I'm a
> >>> > bit loopy! grin.
> >>> >
> >>> > Judy s.
> >>> >
> >>> > Valerie Maples wrote:
> >>> >> Ideally you should have enough
> periods so the right margin is even
> >>> >> for visual scanning of page numbers
> as a list, but an ellipsis
> >>> >> would be better than a single
> space. that is outright torture to find
> >> anything.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Valerie
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie
> ReNae wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Hi Debby,
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I'd like more commentary from our
> sighted print disabled readers
> >>> >>> to
> >> know
> >>> >>> whether this will be helpful
> before I change my practises. I'm
> >>> >>> happy
> >> to
> >>> >>> change, as you are, but not
> willing to make a permanent change
> >>> >>> until
> >> or
> >>> >>> unless it is commented upon by
> more than one person.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else
> who is print disabled, but
> >>> >>> sighted want to comment on this?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Mayrie
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Debby
> >> Franson
> >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04,
> 2009 8:58 AM
> >>> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re:
> Table Of Contents
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Hi Mayrie!
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Should I insert elipses in the
> table of contents in "Rebel With a
> >>> >>> Cause"?
> >>> >>> It wouldn't be a bother.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Debby
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie
> ReNae wrote
> >>> >>>> Hi Melissa,
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> That's a great idea!
> Let's see if it would work for folks like
> >>> >>>> Valerie's Nichole, since
> Valerie was the one requesting a change.
> >>> >>>> If it would work, I don't see
> how it would go against anything
> >>> >>>> bookshare has
> >>> >>> ever said.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Mayrie
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Melissa
> >> Smith
> >>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03,
> 2009 5:07 AM
> >>> >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss]
> Table Of Contents
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> I've been thinking about
> Valerye's concerns about the table of
> >>> >>>> contents.
> >>> >>>> I got to thinking about how
> Braille books have a series of dots
> >> between
> >>> >>>> the chapter title and page
> number. So, I was wondering if
> >>> >>>> inserting
> >> an
> >>> >>>> ellipses between the chapter
> title and page number would be an
> >>> >>>> appropriate
> >>> >>> solution.
> >>> >>>> An ellipses will be
> recognized and kept by bookshare's tools, and
> >> will
> >>> >>>> give some separation between
> chapter title and page number for
> >>> >>>> those that need that. It
> wouldn't be spoken by most screen
> >>> >>>> readers, so wouldn't
> interfere with anybody's listening pleasure.
> >>> >>>> Finally, since Braille
> readers are used to the series of dots
> >>> >>>> between chapter title and
> page number, it wouldn't seem unusual
> >>> >>>> to them
> >> either.
> >>> >>>> So, do you think this would
> be acceptable and not violate any
> >> bookshare
> >>> >>>> rules?
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Melissa
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
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