[bksvol-discuss] Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents

interesting question, Bob. Glad you asked.

Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and books-being-scanned 
list available at sites below



Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List

Books Being Scanned List: 
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List


--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Bob <rwiley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> From: Bob <rwiley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 5:11 AM
> Okay, this is off topic, but I gotta
> ask:
> 
> Can a blind person be dyslexic? Then does reading Braille
> become a problem?
> 
> Or, as I suspect, dyslexia is a problem in the visual
> section of the brain which cuts most of us out altogether.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> boB
> 
> "We know the future will outlast all of us, but I believe
> that all of us will live on in the future we make,"
> Senator Edward M. Kennedy
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:20 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> 
> 
> > Hi, Valerie, I have a sister who is slightly aphasic
> and slightly dyslexic.
> > Also, my father must have had dyslexia because reading
> was a slow process
> > for him. Unfortunately for his generation, teachers
> would think he was slow
> > and would have never heard of dyslexia. The way my
> mother described my
> > sister's condition was to say that it had something to
> do with feedback in
> > her brain. She has problems with fractions, and she
> has a hard time
> > pronouncing certain words. She is now getting stuff
> from my regional
> > library, i.e., Braille Institute of America because,
> as she tells me, she
> > can comprehend some books better if she hears them
> being read to her rather
> > than looking at the book in front of her. I look
> forward to the time when
> > people are taught like they're human beings, rather
> than using a
> > cookie-cutter approach as if our brains can be crammed
> with information any
> > old way as if we were like cars made on an assembly
> line. Regards, Kim.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Valerie Maples
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:37 PM
> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> > 
> > Hi, Evan!
> > 
> > Because I work with emerging literacy, and a secondary
> focus on learning
> > disabilities, visual presentation is important in
> building skills. Typically
> > speaking in teaching a child how to orient themselves
> to a table of contents
> > the chapter number is on the left, usually followed by
> a couple of spaces or
> > a tab, then the title of the chapter, and then usually
> some distance away
> > from it on the right margin of the page is the actual
> page number. By making
> > the three elements of a single line distinct, you
> teach children how to scan
> > in not only a horizontal linear pattern, but a
> vertical pattern as well.
> > When there is too much information into smaller space
> children with learning
> > disabilities tend to mangle the information and not be
> able to retrieve the
> > details. It can make it more difficult for an adult
> with dyslexia because
> > they can then have a greater chance of confusing the
> numbers with letters.
> > There are also a number of visual learning
> disabilities were spatial
> > relationships are important. By controlling how the
> information is formatted
> > you improve the odds of a child successfully learning
> how to not only
> > differentiate but digest the information that is
> present.
> > 
> > It is incredibly difficult to teach advanced functions
> of computer searching
> > to kids who have these learning disabilities since
> they often have problems
> > but spelling correctly or with number order. It is
> also an additional skill
> > layered on top of another skill at you are trying to
> create, which can be
> > difficult. I am sure I am not making much sense, but I
> can tell you as an
> > adult with dyslexia, if the information is too close
> together, I take about
> > five times as long to sort the information. Ideally
> there should be a much
> > greater distance and the page numbers should online in
> a column, but
> > separation of any type is better than the same thing
> used to indicate a
> > change of words.
> > 
> > I am trying to learn as much as I can about why
> presentation matters and how
> > it is effected by those who listen as well as those
> who read in Braille, and
> > I don't want anyone to think that I am being a bully
> and constantly
> > reshaping arguments about formatting, but because so
> much of Bookshare's
> > current efforts are directed toward their educational
> grant, I think we do
> > ourselves well to continue to meet the needs of these
> kids as best we can.
> > If we strip all of the useful tools of the visual
> presentation in effort to
> > "standardize", we may remove the ability of some
> students to develop
> > independent literacy skills outside of software. Until
> our society has moved
> > to a format where all text is available
> electronically, books, newspapers,
> > and snail mail remain a reality that we need to teach
> students to develop
> > techniques to handle. I am all for tools of compromise
> as long as meaningful
> > information can still be derived for the target
> populations. Individuals
> > with visual impairments have had alternate formats for
> decades, but it
> > really is in its infancy for students with more severe
> physical disabilities
> > or learning disabilities.
> > 
> > In truth, many texts would be better handled if they
> could be formatted both
> > ways, instead of a unified format that is then
> translated. Since that is
> > completely unlikely to happen, the next best thing we
> can have is
> > considerate dialogues trying to find common ground.
> Thank you for allowing
> > me to participate in these discussions.
> > 
> > I have to get Nichole ready for bed, so please forgive
> me if there are any
> > speech recognition errors in this long missive. I
> promise you it is better
> > than anything that I could have pecked out and taken
> an hour to correct.
> > Wink.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > Valerie
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> >> Behalf Of EVAN REESE
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:33 PM
> >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >> 
> >> Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying.
> You are completely
> >> incoherent. Just kidding.
> >> 
> >> Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word
> that it is
> >> difficult to read a page number in a TOC with only
> a space between it
> >> and the title, although I will admit that I don't
> understand why this
> >> should be so. If
> > you
> >> are reading the title of something, you would just
> see the page number
> > after
> >> it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for
> information, not for
> >> argumentation. If it is difficult to read a number
> with only a space
> > between
> >> it and a word, why is it not equally difficult to
> read words with only
> >> a single space between them? As I said, I am
> looking for insight, not
> > doubting
> >> the word of those who actually read with sight.
> >> 
> >> Thanks for any help you can give to further my
> knowledge on this.
> >> 
> >> Evan
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >> 
> >> 
> >> >I agree with Valerie.  It is a torture to
> figure out tables of
> >> >contents visually with just the single
> space.  I'm perfectly happy
> >> >with an
> > ellipsis
> >> >instead of the space, as an idea.  I
> can't see any way that trying to
> >> >figuour out how many periods to put in to make
> the right margin on
> >> >each line, as is done with a printed book,
> will make sense or be
> >> >anything but
> > a
> >> >nightmare to do if you're blind.  Having
> an ellipsis in makes it
> > perfectly
> >> >readable for me visually.
> >> >
> >> > Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some
> major dental surgery
> >> > today
> > and
> >> > we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an
> elephant down.  So I'm a
> >> > bit loopy! grin.
> >> >
> >> > Judy s.
> >> >
> >> > Valerie Maples wrote:
> >> >> Ideally you should have enough periods so
> the right margin is even
> >> >> for visual scanning of page numbers
> as  a list, but an ellipsis
> >> >> would be better than a single
> space.  that is outright torture to find
> > anything.
> >> >>
> >> >> Valerie
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hi Debby,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I'd like more commentary from our
> sighted print disabled readers
> >> >>> to
> > know
> >> >>> whether this will be helpful before I
> change my practises.  I'm
> >> >>> happy
> > to
> >> >>> change, as you are, but not willing
> to make a permanent change
> >> >>> until
> > or
> >> >>> unless it is commented upon by more
> than one person.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who
> is print disabled, but
> >> >>> sighted want to comment on this?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Mayrie
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Debby
> > Franson
> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009
> 8:58 AM
> >> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table
> Of Contents
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi Mayrie!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Should I insert elipses in the table
> of contents in "Rebel With a
> >> >>> Cause"?
> >> >>> It wouldn't be a bother.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Debby
> >> >>>
> >> >>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae
> wrote
> >> >>>> Hi Melissa,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> That's a great idea!  Let's
> see if it would work for folks like
> >> >>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie
> was the one requesting a change.
> >> >>>> If it would work, I don't see how
> it would go against anything
> >> >>>> bookshare has
> >> >>> ever said.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Mayrie
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Melissa
> > Smith
> >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009
> 5:07 AM
> >> >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table
> Of Contents
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I've been thinking about
> Valerye's concerns about the table of
> >> >>>> contents.
> >> >>>> I got to thinking about how
> Braille books have a series of dots
> > between
> >> >>>> the chapter title and page
> number. So, I was wondering if
> >> >>>> inserting
> > an
> >> >>>> ellipses between the chapter
> title and page number would be an
> >> >>>> appropriate
> >> >>> solution.
> >> >>>> An ellipses will be recognized
> and kept by bookshare's tools, and
> > will
> >> >>>> give some separation between
> chapter title and page number for
> >> >>>> those that need that. It wouldn't
> be spoken by most screen
> >> >>>> readers, so wouldn't interfere
> with anybody's listening pleasure.
> >> >>>> Finally, since Braille readers
> are used to the series of dots
> >> >>>> between chapter title and page
> number, it wouldn't seem unusual
> >> >>>> to them
> > either.
> >> >>>> So, do you think this would be
> acceptable and not violate any
> > bookshare
> >> >>>> rules?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Melissa
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
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