[bksvol-discuss] Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
- From: Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:02:08 EST
I have an acquaintance who is severely dyslexic and she says that maps are
completely useless for her. She also says that when she is given directions
it does not help to speak in terms of east and west and left and right. It
is necessary to speak in terms of a red house followed by a white house with
abush beside it and etcetera. It is interesting that she was once reading a
lengthy passage from a book to me and she seemed to be reading perfectly
well to me, so I commented on the fact. She said that she does a lot of
guessing and it only messes up for her when it is most important for it not to
mess
up. I do know, though, that she has gotten lost when traveling locally and
often goes pretty far out of her way in order to take the route she has
memorized and she attributes all of that to her dyslexia.
"I have no country to fight for; my country is
the earth, and I am a citizen of the world." Eugene V. Debs
The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com Pathfinder Press:
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
_
table with 2 columns and 6 rows
Subj:
[bksvol-discuss] Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
Date:
11/6/2009 2:50:13 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:
popularplace@xxxxxxxxx
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table end
I think having difficulty orienting oneself, i.e., knowing what is east and
west, etc., is a fairly common thing, perhaps. I have to remember that
(where
I live, west is where the ocean is and north is where the mountains
are--other I would have no idea. My daughter can't read a map. she even got
lost
leaving
the airport driving a car that had a map and navigational system; I also
tend to think that north is up--or up in relation to a map--i.e., living in
Los
Angeles, I know that Sacramento is north and our home in L.A. is north in
relation to San Diego. When we're driving home from San Diego, I know
we're
going north--but I could not understand one time that because the freeway
curved at one point we were no longer going north but were going west. We
were
still going straight on the road--we , i.e., the car hadn't made a turn; we
were tstill going straight on the freeway as we started.hadn't My husband
had to point out to me that we were driving
the setting sun, and it doesn't set in the north. grin
Cindy
Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and
books-being-scanned list available at sites below
Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List
Books Being Scanned List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Kim Friedman <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> From: Kim Friedman <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 6:02 PM
> Hi, Bob, I'm thinking dyslexia may
> have something to do with how you process
> information. It may not have anything to do with vision per
> se. I know of
> people who can't grasp a means of orienting themselves in
> their environment.
> I had to literally make myself learn how the cardinal
> directions related to
> me if I imagined myself in a square. I had to tell myself
> that if I was
> facing south, west would be on my right, east on my left,
> and north behind
> me. I had to do this until it somehow clicked in my brain.
> I have a friend
> who has never been able to do this. I don't know if this
> has anything to do
> with how RLF (or ROP if you prefer) affected her. I know
> when I was learning
> to read Braille I had a hard time knowing the difference
> between I and E.
> Later on I could tell the difference, but when I first
> started out, it was
> hard for me to grasp. I don't see why blind people couldn't
> suffer from
> dyslexia or from learning disabilities. I think we are
> subject to the same
> sorts of things others are subject to. We just have more to
> deal with
> because we're not dealing with sight to give us
> information. Regards, Kim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Bob
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 5:12 AM
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of
> Contents
>
> Okay, this is off topic, but I gotta ask:
>
> Can a blind person be dyslexic? Then does reading Braille
> become a problem?
>
> Or, as I suspect, dyslexia is a problem in the visual
> section of the brain
> which cuts most of us out altogether.
>
> Thanks,
>
> boB
>
> "We know the future will outlast all of us, but I believe
> that all of us
> will live on in the future we make,"
> Senator Edward M. Kennedy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:20 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>
>
> > Hi, Valerie, I have a sister who is slightly aphasic
> and slightly
> > dyslexic.
> > Also, my father must have had dyslexia because reading
> was a slow
> > process for him. Unfortunately for his generation,
> teachers would
> > think he was slow and would have never heard of
> dyslexia. The way my
> > mother described my sister's condition was to say that
> it had
> > something to do with feedback in her brain. She has
> problems with
> > fractions, and she has a hard time pronouncing certain
> words. She is
> > now getting stuff from my regional library, i.e.,
> Braille Institute of
> > America because, as she tells me, she can comprehend
> some books better
> > if she hears them being read to her rather than
> looking at the book in
> > front of her. I look forward to the time when people
> are taught like
> > they're human beings, rather than using a
> cookie-cutter approach as if
> > our brains can be crammed with information any old way
> as if we were
> > like cars made on an assembly line. Regards, Kim.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Valerie
> > Maples
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:37 PM
> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >
> > Hi, Evan!
> >
> > Because I work with emerging literacy, and a secondary
> focus on
> > learning disabilities, visual presentation is
> important in building
> skills.
> > Typically
> > speaking in teaching a child how to orient themselves
> to a table of
> > contents the chapter number is on the left, usually
> followed by a
> > couple of spaces or a tab, then the title of the
> chapter, and then
> > usually some distance away from it on the right margin
> of the page is
> > the actual page number. By making the three elements
> of a single line
> > distinct, you teach children how to scan in not only a
> horizontal
> > linear pattern, but a vertical pattern as well.
> > When there is too much information into smaller space
> children with
> > learning disabilities tend to mangle the information
> and not be able
> > to retrieve the details. It can make it more difficult
> for an adult
> > with dyslexia because they can then have a greater
> chance of confusing
> > the numbers with letters.
> > There are also a number of visual learning
> disabilities were spatial
> > relationships are important. By controlling how the
> information is
> > formatted you improve the odds of a child successfully
> learning how to
> > not only differentiate but digest the information that
> is present.
> >
> > It is incredibly difficult to teach advanced functions
> of computer
> > searching to kids who have these learning disabilities
> since they
> > often have problems but spelling correctly or with
> number order. It is
> > also an additional skill layered on top of another
> skill at you are
> > trying to create, which can be difficult. I am sure I
> am not making
> > much sense, but I can tell you as an adult with
> dyslexia, if the
> > information is too close together, I take about five
> times as long to
> > sort the information. Ideally there should be a much
> greater distance
> > and the page numbers should online in a column, but
> separation of any
> > type is better than the same thing used to indicate a
> change of words.
> >
> > I am trying to learn as much as I can about why
> presentation matters
> > and how it is effected by those who listen as well as
> those who read
> > in Braille, and I don't want anyone to think that I am
> being a bully
> > and constantly reshaping arguments about formatting,
> but because so
> > much of Bookshare's current efforts are directed
> toward their
> > educational grant, I think we do ourselves well to
> continue to meet
> > the needs of these kids as best we can.
> > If we strip all of the useful tools of the visual
> presentation in
> > effort to "standardize", we may remove the ability of
> some students to
> > develop independent literacy skills outside of
> software. Until our
> > society has moved to a format where all text is
> available
> > electronically, books, newspapers, and snail mail
> remain a reality
> > that we need to teach students to develop techniques
> to handle. I am
> > all for tools of compromise as long as meaningful
> information can
> > still be derived for the target populations.
> Individuals with visual
> > impairments have had alternate formats for decades,
> but it really is
> > in its infancy for students with more severe physical
> disabilities or
> > learning disabilities.
> >
> > In truth, many texts would be better handled if they
> could be
> > formatted both ways, instead of a unified format that
> is then
> > translated. Since that is completely unlikely to
> happen, the next best
> > thing we can have is considerate dialogues trying to
> find common
> > ground. Thank you for allowing me to participate in
> these discussions.
> >
> > I have to get Nichole ready for bed, so please forgive
> me if there are
> > any speech recognition errors in this long missive. I
> promise you it
> > is better than anything that I could have pecked out
> and taken an hour to
> correct.
> > Wink.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Valerie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> >> Behalf Of EVAN REESE
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:33 PM
> >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >>
> >> Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying.
> You are completely
> >> incoherent. Just kidding.
> >>
> >> Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word
> that it is
> >> difficult to read a page number in a TOC with only
> a space between it
> >> and the title, although I will admit that I don't
> understand why this
> >> should be so. If
> > you
> >> are reading the title of something, you would just
> see the page
> >> number
> > after
> >> it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for
> information, not
> >> for argumentation. If it is difficult to read a
> number with only a
> >> space
> > between
> >> it and a word, why is it not equally difficult to
> read words with
> >> only a single space between them? As I said, I am
> looking for
> >> insight, not
> > doubting
> >> the word of those who actually read with sight.
> >>
> >> Thanks for any help you can give to further my
> knowledge on this.
> >>
> >> Evan
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >>
> >>
> >> >I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to
> figure out tables of
> >> >contents visually with just the single
> space. I'm perfectly happy
> >> >with an
> > ellipsis
> >> >instead of the space, as an idea. I
> can't see any way that trying
> >> >to figuour out how many periods to put in to
> make the right margin
> >> >on each line, as is done with a printed book,
> will make sense or be
> >> >anything but
> > a
> >> >nightmare to do if you're blind. Having
> an ellipsis in makes it
> > perfectly
> >> >readable for me visually.
> >> >
> >> > Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some
> major dental surgery
> >> > today
> > and
> >> > we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an
> elephant down. So I'm
> >> > a bit loopy! grin.
> >> >
> >> > Judy s.
> >> >
> >> > Valerie Maples wrote:
> >> >> Ideally you should have enough periods so
> the right margin is even
> >> >> for visual scanning of page numbers
> as a list, but an ellipsis
> >> >> would be better than a single
> space. that is outright torture to
> >> >> find
> > anything.
> >> >>
> >> >> Valerie
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hi Debby,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I'd like more commentary from our
> sighted print disabled readers
> >> >>> to
> > know
> >> >>> whether this will be helpful before I
> change my practises. I'm
> >> >>> happy
> > to
> >> >>> change, as you are, but not willing
> to make a permanent change
> >> >>> until
> > or
> >> >>> unless it is commented upon by more
> than one person.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who
> is print disabled, but
> >> >>> sighted want to comment on this?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Mayrie
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Debby
> > Franson
> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009
> 8:58 AM
> >> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table
> Of Contents
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi Mayrie!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Should I insert elipses in the table
> of contents in "Rebel With a
> >> >>> Cause"?
> >> >>> It wouldn't be a bother.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Debby
> >> >>>
> >> >>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae
> wrote
> >> >>>> Hi Melissa,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> That's a great idea! Let's
> see if it would work for folks like
> >> >>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie
> was the one requesting a change.
> >> >>>> If it would work, I don't see how
> it would go against anything
> >> >>>> bookshare has
> >> >>> ever said.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Mayrie
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of
> >> >>>> Melissa
> > Smith
> >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009
> 5:07 AM
> >> >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table
> Of Contents
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I've been thinking about
> Valerye's concerns about the table of
> >> >>>> contents.
> >> >>>> I got to thinking about how
> Braille books have a series of dots
> > between
> >> >>>> the chapter title and page
> number. So, I was wondering if
> >> >>>> inserting
> > an
> >> >>>> ellipses between the chapter
> title and page number would be an
> >> >>>> appropriate
> >> >>> solution.
> >> >>>> An ellipses will be recognized
> and kept by bookshare's tools,
> >> >>>> and
> > will
> >> >>>> give some separation between
> chapter title and page number for
> >> >>>> those that need that. It wouldn't
> be spoken by most screen
> >> >>>> readers, so wouldn't interfere
> with anybody's listening pleasure.
> >> >>>> Finally, since Braille readers
> are used to the series of dots
> >> >>>> between chapter title and page
> number, it wouldn't seem unusual
> >> >>>> to them
> > either.
> >> >>>> So, do you think this would be
> acceptable and not violate any
> > bookshare
> >> >>>> rules?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Melissa
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> To unsubscribe from this list
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> >> >>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Enjoy what you have rather than
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> >> >>> Just dreaming about nice things is
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> >> >>> chasing the wind.--Ecclesiastes
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