[bksvol-discuss] Re: ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
- From: Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:28:42 EST
That is an interesting question. Brain research has shown that a blind
person reading Braille uses the same areas of the visual cortex that a sighted
person reading print does to read. I am not sure, though, that dyslexia is
centered in that particular region. I think it concerns how the information
is processed rather than how it is immediately perceived and that processing
may take place elsewhere in the brain. Nevertheless, blindness is generally
an eye problem not a brain problem, so I would expect that anything that can
afflict a sighted person's brain can afflict a blind person's brain with
equal frequency, so, yes, I am sure that a blind person can be dyslexic, but I
have no idea what effect it would have on the blind person.
"I have no country to fight for; my country is
the earth, and I am a citizen of the world." Eugene V. Debs
The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com Pathfinder Press:
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
_
table with 2 columns and 6 rows
Subj:
[bksvol-discuss] ot: dyslexia was Re: Re: Table Of Contents
Date:
11/5/2009 8:12:36 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:
rwiley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Reply-to:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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(Details)
table end
Okay, this is off topic, but I gotta ask:
Can a blind person be dyslexic? Then does reading Braille become a problem?
Or, as I suspect, dyslexia is a problem in the visual section of the brain
which cuts most of us out altogether.
Thanks,
boB
"We know the future will outlast all of us, but I believe that all of us
will live on in the future we make,"
Senator Edward M. Kennedy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:20 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> Hi, Valerie, I have a sister who is slightly aphasic and slightly
> dyslexic.
> Also, my father must have had dyslexia because reading was a slow process
> for him. Unfortunately for his generation, teachers would think he was
> slow
> and would have never heard of dyslexia. The way my mother described my
> sister's condition was to say that it had something to do with feedback
in
> her brain. She has problems with fractions, and she has a hard time
> pronouncing certain words. She is now getting stuff from my regional
> library, i.e., Braille Institute of America because, as she tells me, she
> can comprehend some books better if she hears them being read to her
> rather
> than looking at the book in front of her. I look forward to the time when
> people are taught like they're human beings, rather than using a
> cookie-cutter approach as if our brains can be crammed with information
> any
> old way as if we were like cars made on an assembly line. Regards, Kim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Valerie Maples
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>
> Hi, Evan!
>
> Because I work with emerging literacy, and a secondary focus on learning
> disabilities, visual presentation is important in building skills.
> Typically
> speaking in teaching a child how to orient themselves to a table of
> contents
> the chapter number is on the left, usually followed by a couple of spaces
> or
> a tab, then the title of the chapter, and then usually some distance away
> from it on the right margin of the page is the actual page number. By
> making
> the three elements of a single line distinct, you teach children how to
> scan
> in not only a horizontal linear pattern, but a vertical pattern as well.
> When there is too much information into smaller space children with
> learning
> disabilities tend to mangle the information and not be able to retrieve
> the
> details. It can make it more difficult for an adult with dyslexia because
> they can then have a greater chance of confusing the numbers with
letters.
> There are also a number of visual learning disabilities were spatial
> relationships are important. By controlling how the information is
> formatted
> you improve the odds of a child successfully learning how to not only
> differentiate but digest the information that is present.
>
> It is incredibly difficult to teach advanced functions of computer
> searching
> to kids who have these learning disabilities since they often have
> problems
> but spelling correctly or with number order. It is also an additional
> skill
> layered on top of another skill at you are trying to create, which can be
> difficult. I am sure I am not making much sense, but I can tell you as an
> adult with dyslexia, if the information is too close together, I take
> about
> five times as long to sort the information. Ideally there should be a
much
> greater distance and the page numbers should online in a column, but
> separation of any type is better than the same thing used to indicate a
> change of words.
>
> I am trying to learn as much as I can about why presentation matters and
> how
> it is effected by those who listen as well as those who read in Braille,
> and
> I don't want anyone to think that I am being a bully and constantly
> reshaping arguments about formatting, but because so much of Bookshare's
> current efforts are directed toward their educational grant, I think we
do
> ourselves well to continue to meet the needs of these kids as best we
can.
> If we strip all of the useful tools of the visual presentation in effort
> to
> "standardize", we may remove the ability of some students to develop
> independent literacy skills outside of software. Until our society has
> moved
> to a format where all text is available electronically, books,
newspapers,
> and snail mail remain a reality that we need to teach students to develop
> techniques to handle. I am all for tools of compromise as long as
> meaningful
> information can still be derived for the target populations. Individuals
> with visual impairments have had alternate formats for decades, but it
> really is in its infancy for students with more severe physical
> disabilities
> or learning disabilities.
>
> In truth, many texts would be better handled if they could be formatted
> both
> ways, instead of a unified format that is then translated. Since that is
> completely unlikely to happen, the next best thing we can have is
> considerate dialogues trying to find common ground. Thank you for
allowing
> me to participate in these discussions.
>
> I have to get Nichole ready for bed, so please forgive me if there are
any
> speech recognition errors in this long missive. I promise you it is
better
> than anything that I could have pecked out and taken an hour to correct.
> Wink.
>
> Thanks!
> Valerie
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> Behalf Of EVAN REESE
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:33 PM
>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>>
>> Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying. You are completely
>> incoherent. Just kidding.
>>
>> Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word that it is
>> difficult to read a page number in a TOC with only a space between it
>> and the title, although I will admit that I don't understand why this
>> should be so. If
> you
>> are reading the title of something, you would just see the page number
> after
>> it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for information, not for
>> argumentation. If it is difficult to read a number with only a space
> between
>> it and a word, why is it not equally difficult to read words with only
>> a single space between them? As I said, I am looking for insight, not
> doubting
>> the word of those who actually read with sight.
>>
>> Thanks for any help you can give to further my knowledge on this.
>>
>> Evan
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>>
>>
>> >I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to figure out tables of
>> >contents visually with just the single space. I'm perfectly happy
>> >with an
> ellipsis
>> >instead of the space, as an idea. I can't see any way that trying to
>> >figuour out how many periods to put in to make the right margin on
>> >each line, as is done with a printed book, will make sense or be
>> >anything but
> a
>> >nightmare to do if you're blind. Having an ellipsis in makes it
> perfectly
>> >readable for me visually.
>> >
>> > Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some major dental surgery
>> > today
> and
>> > we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an elephant down. So I'm a
>> > bit loopy! grin.
>> >
>> > Judy s.
>> >
>> > Valerie Maples wrote:
>> >> Ideally you should have enough periods so the right margin is even
>> >> for visual scanning of page numbers as a list, but an ellipsis
>> >> would be better than a single space. that is outright torture to
find
> anything.
>> >>
>> >> Valerie
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi Debby,
>> >>>
>> >>> I'd like more commentary from our sighted print disabled readers
>> >>> to
> know
>> >>> whether this will be helpful before I change my practises. I'm
>> >>> happy
> to
>> >>> change, as you are, but not willing to make a permanent change
>> >>> until
> or
>> >>> unless it is commented upon by more than one person.
>> >>>
>> >>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who is print disabled, but
>> >>> sighted want to comment on this?
>> >>>
>> >>> Mayrie
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Debby
> Franson
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:58 AM
>> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Mayrie!
>> >>>
>> >>> Should I insert elipses in the table of contents in "Rebel With a
>> >>> Cause"?
>> >>> It wouldn't be a bother.
>> >>>
>> >>> Debby
>> >>>
>> >>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote
>> >>>> Hi Melissa,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That's a great idea! Let's see if it would work for folks like
>> >>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie was the one requesting a change.
>> >>>> If it would work, I don't see how it would go against anything
>> >>>> bookshare has
>> >>> ever said.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mayrie
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Melissa
> Smith
>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:07 AM
>> >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table Of Contents
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I've been thinking about Valerye's concerns about the table of
>> >>>> contents.
>> >>>> I got to thinking about how Braille books have a series of dots
> between
>> >>>> the chapter title and page number. So, I was wondering if
>> >>>> inserting
> an
>> >>>> ellipses between the chapter title and page number would be an
>> >>>> appropriate
>> >>> solution.
>> >>>> An ellipses will be recognized and kept by bookshare's tools, and
> will
>> >>>> give some separation between chapter title and page number for
>> >>>> those that need that. It wouldn't be spoken by most screen
>> >>>> readers, so wouldn't interfere with anybody's listening pleasure.
>> >>>> Finally, since Braille readers are used to the series of dots
>> >>>> between chapter title and page number, it wouldn't seem unusual
>> >>>> to them
> either.
>> >>>> So, do you think this would be acceptable and not violate any
> bookshare
>> >>>> rules?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Melissa
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't have. Just
>> >>> dreaming about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing the
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