[bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted

Dear Gerald,

Your systematic trial and error approach sound promising.

Good luck. We'll be happy when we find that magic bullet.

Always With Love,

Lissi
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Hovas" <geraldhovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 1:02 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted



Sarah,

Sorry, I should have made it clearer that the examples from the submitted
books come from the files I uploaded for submission. They are the last line
of text and the running footer on one page and the first line of text on the
following page in the RTF files that I uploaded. Both of the books I
scanned have the page numbers in the running footers and the book's title
and author alternating in the running headers. In both instances, I
manually stripped the headers from the scan prior to submission.


You bring up a good point. How do Bookshare's tools treat books with no
blank line at the top and bottom when the page numbers are in the running
headers. I haven't actually tried that test since I assumed it would not
make any difference, but I did not notice that the tools had moved the page
numbers from the bottom of the page to the top until I took a closer look at
the results for these two books. As you saw, the page numbers were
processed by the Stripper and were then, at a later time, added back to the
top of the page when the HTML file was created.


Looking back again at the RTF and HTML files for the first book I submitted,
it appears as if this might not be an issue when there is no text on the top
line of the page. As you can see from the bottom of page 40 and the top of
page 41 in the RTF file, page 41 contains an unprotected chapter heading.


-----

Homeless looked at him without blinking. "Lord, have mercy."

40
[Page Break]
CHAPTER TWO

Lost

BUT WHO WOULD HAVE SENT ME A MICROWAVE?" he wanted to

-----

Since the chapter heading was stripped due to it not being protected, there
was no text on the first line of the page, and the bug did not occur.


-----

Homeless looked at him without blinking. "Lord, have mercy."

41

Lost

BUT WHO WOULD HAVE SENT ME A MICROWAVE?"he wanted to

-----

I think I'll try no blank lines at the top and bottom of pages in the book
I'm currently working on since the page numbers in this validation are in
the running headers.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that, based on what I've been seeing, the
following would occur.

-----

last line of text on page 99
[Page Break]
100

First line of text on page 100

-----

would produce

-----

last line of text on page 99
100

First line of text on page 100

-----

It will be interesting to see if my prediction is correct. Based on only
113 correct picks from the 176 NFL football games that have been played this
season, my odds aren't that good. <Smile>


Gerald


-----Original Message----- From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Sarah Van Oosterwijck Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:17 PM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted


Ah, exactly what i mean about taking for ever to write so that I don't confuse anyone.

Notice that I stated that the number of blank lines "before" a header don't
matter, and that the number of lines "after" a footer don't matter.


Now if you read that very carefully, is that true?

So that I am sure I am not confused, which certainly happens, did you
remove page headers, but leave in page numbers? How was the original
formatted exactly? I am not sure if the first example you gave was from
what you submitted or from the DAISY copy of the book.
If it was your original I would take that to mean that page numbers were at
the bottoms of pages, thus no page number at the top of page ten. The page
number at the top of page ten would then be the DAISY tag, which is always
placed at the top of pages in the HTML files. I would also deduce that
anytime we start a page with text instead of a blank line there will be a
problem in the HTML copy, which I would consider really annoying. Of
course books with page numbers exclusively at the tops of pages won't cause
problems.


Thanks for letting us know that placing page numbers on blank pages really
is useful for the system as well as the validators.  Any little piece of
understanding we can get on how the system works helps improve books.

Sarah Van Oosterwijck
Assistive Technology Trainer
http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Hovas" <geraldhovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:49 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted


Blank lines are meaningful to the Bookshare tools, but at some point it's
possible that additional blank lines are being discarded.  They may be
lost
when the file is converted to the intermediate file format (possibly XML)
which is used to create both the DAISY and BRF books.

The reason I say blank lines aren't meaningless is because of what I have
noticed happening in the HTML file which can be unpacked along with the
DAISY files.


Here is an example of a page from the first book I submitted which does not have blank lines at the top and bottom. The text comes from the bottom of page 9 and the top of page 10. As you can see, I stripped the header. All of the headers came out garbled because, from what my Wife said, they were in a smaller, thinner font and printed in green.

----------

like a freight train, and somebody in it talkin' on a phone."

9
[Page Break]
She turned to the small crowd that had rushed out of the Main

----------


Now, here is the same text in the HTML file.

----------

like a freight train, and somebody in it talkin' on a phone."

10 She turned to the small crowd that had rushed out of the Main

----------


The Stripper recognized the page number for page 10 properly, but when the page number in the tag was added back to page 10 in the HTML file, it was attached to the front of the first paragraph on that page.


Now here's an example from the second book I submitted which had a blank line at the top and bottom of the page. As you can see, I've stripped the header again.

----------

and the word spreading through the Grill like so much

11

[Page Break]

wildfire, and spilling out the door and up Main Street

----------


Now here's that same text from the HTML file.

----------

and the word spreading through the Grill like so much

12

wildfire, and spilling out the door and up Main Street

----------


This time the page number from the DAISY tag was placed on a line by itself rather than attaching it to the first paragraph. Again you can see that the page number is moved to the top of the page because of the way the tools process page numbers.

Granted two examples aren't much evidence to go on, especially when
someone
else validated the two books, but I've seen the problem with page numbers
in
many HTML files, and none of the books I've worked on have this problem
other than my first book which doesn't contain a blank line at the top
and
bottom of each page.  Unless someone can provide an example where not
having
the blank line at the top and bottom of the page doesn't cause the error,
I'll continue to believe that the lack of the blank lines is the reason
for
the page number bug.

Gerald

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Sarah Van
Oosterwijck
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 3:53 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted


Blank lines are meaningless to the bookshare system. You could put 0 blank lines before and after the page number or dozens and the system would view it the same way. The first and last lines on a page are considered possible headers or footers no matter their placement.

A header is the first single line of text on a page followed by a blank
line.

A footer is the last single line of text on a page when it is preceded by
a
blank line.

The number of blank lines before a header or after a footer don't matter.

The header or footer is stripped if (1) it is a page number, (2) it is
text
that repeats on several other pages.

Page numbers currently only appear in DAISY books when read with the
right
software, but in the future, BookShare has informed this list, that will
most likely change.  They have indicated that they want to improve access
so that braille readers and users of other software might see the page
numbers as well.  We just don't know when or how this will be
accomplished.

I have started working on a tip about this, but I am always trying to be
too thorough, and I try to write in a way that won't confuse.  The result
is that I am very slow.

Sarah Van Oosterwijck
Assistive Technology Trainer
http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 2:53 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted


Pratik,

Is there any danger that by having the page number on
the new line right after the page break that it will
be deleted by the stripper? I've been leaving a blank
line before and after my page numbers, whether  they
appear on the top or the bottom of the page--likewise,
before the page's text. IS this not necessary?

Cindy


At the top of the blank page write the pae nmber and press enter twice. So your page would appears as follows.

Page break
page number
new line
new line
page break

This will allow the pagination to continue.

Pratik



Pratik Patel
Director, CUNY Assistive Technology Services (CATS)
The City University of New York
pratik.patel@xxxxxxxxxxx



  _____

From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Estelnalissi
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:46 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] opinions on blank pages
wanted


~Hello Everyone,

Sometimes in the book I'm validating there's a blank
page after a chapter.
Page breaks are there one just below the other. I've
been placing a blank
line under the page break, writing, blank page on
the second line and
leaving another blank line beneath. I thought the
stripper might delete my 2
words.

The other question is whether you think I should
write a page number on the
page. That's an oxymoron if ever there was one,
because the blank page would
now contain the words blank page and after a skipped
line, a page number.
Some blank, huh?

In the book, that blank doesn't have a printed
number, but it has been taken
in to account on the following page where the
chapter begins. for example,
last page of chapter is 80, blank page, first page
of next chapter is 82.

I'm asking because I have this bleary notion we're
supposed to account for
all pages. I'm afraid if I don't write a notice
that there's a blank page
and assign it's number, the uploading program might
think I've left pages
missing.

Is that extra page break enough to account for the
blank page?

I've been using my judgment on this detail, but
wonder what the rest of you
do or if there's a right way to process these blank
pages.

Thank you in advance.

Always With Love,

Lissi





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