[bksvol-discuss] Re: about braille

Respectfully Sharon,  and of course completely anecdotally and 
subjectively,  I beg to disagree.
For me reading via TTS,  and regretably so often -- also listening to 
human speech,  recorded or live, are almost purely visual experiences, 
where I 'see' white words flashing in front of me on a very dark 
background.

Studies of the neurological differences between 'reading and listening' 
are very old.  I heard about them even when I was a small child,  which 
was almost half a century ago.  So,  I venture to say,  they are likely to 
be as obsolete as I am,  and by now they have become almost urban legends.

Guido

Aloysius
 



Guido D. Corona
IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
IBM Research,
Phone:  (512) 838-9735
Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx

Visit my weekly Accessibility WebLog at:
http://www-3.ibm.com/able/weblog/corona_weblog.html





"Sharon Jackson" <dolly1025@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
05/17/2004 01:54 PM
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[bksvol-discuss] Re: about braille






I never said that those who can't read the written word are thought of as 
a
lesser person.  I only meant to convey there is a difference between 
reading
and listening.

Sharon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Guido Corona" <guidoc@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:02 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: about braille


> If I may once more, ever-so-humbly chime in,
>
> I am quietly bemused by the implicit droll suggestions that those of us
> who have not embraced Braille are 'children of a lesser literacy'.
> I must have been living for countless years under the now clearly
> misguided self-delusion that  my proficiency in handling the written
> language was somewhat comparable to that of those members of the blind
> community who are schooled in the tactile representation of the word.
> Well,  it is now clear that I am instead woefully deficient in that
> regard,  and my TTS-mediated textual cognition mechanism is inherently
> inferior to the tactile one,  because the reflexive conversion I perform
> from the sounds to the underlying fully expanded words for some
> unfathomable reason  will never match the direct representation of the
> compressed same,  which can be only enjoyed by the 
neurologically-superior
> tactile gurus.
>
> On the other hand,  when those anthropocentric views of the 'true
> believers' are finally mitigated  by a modicum of skeptical relativism,
> when the pitfalls of aprioristic believes are detected, when the urban
> legends of blind Braille employment rates uniformly peddled by the 
Braille
> technology industry re recognized to be outdated and tendentious, and
> those 'superior neurological pathways' are finally relegated to the 
realm
> of pseudoscientific myths,  then I may be eventually readmitted to the
> world of the 'chosen ones'.
>
> Do remember the words of the sage of Appenzell:
> 'Spoons do not gag people.  People using spoons gag people!'
>
> Aloysius.
>
>
> Guido D. Corona
> IBM Accessibility Center,  Austin Tx.
> IBM Research,
> Phone:  (512) 838-9735
> Email: guidoc@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Visit my weekly Accessibility WebLog at:
> http://www-3.ibm.com/able/weblog/corona_weblog.html
>
>
>
>
>
> "Sharon Jackson" <dolly1025@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent by: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 05/17/2004 11:21 AM
> Please respond to
> bksvol-discuss
>
>
> To
> <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> cc
>
> Subject
> [bksvol-discuss] Re: about braille
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
> I agree.  Access to information is crucial to accomplishing college
> courses.
> I think students should gain the necessary skills to utilize all forms 
of
> materials available to them.
>
> I do believe that reading is different than listening because one has to
> know the rules that govern the written language and formulate their own
> interpretations while listening only deals with the comprehension of the
> material.  Does this mean that individuals who do not read cannot 
succeed
> in
> college?  I do not believe this is the case as long as they know how to
> access information.
>
> In my graduate courses, we are given the necessary information to assist
> children/adults in accessing information whether they have to read it
> themselves or have it read to them.
>
> Sharon
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Edwards, Paul" <pedwards@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 10:37 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: about braille
>
>
> > The primary issue here is comprehension.  I have a huge problem with 
the
> notion that listening is not reading.  It is creating immense problems 
for
> those people who are blind who do not have access to braille or large
> print
> because of their physical condition.  I am really bothered by purists 
who
> are preventing kids who are blind from graduating from high school 
because
> they cannot "read"
> >
> > We have also had immense success by providing access to speech
> technology
> for students with certain learning disabilities and also for some 
autistic
> students.  The issue is developing a capacity to  acquire and retain
> information.  However that is done seems somewhat irrelevant to me.  I 
am
> an
> avid braille reader and a good audio reader and, even though I am 
totally
> blind and have always been so, learning tests say I am a visual learner. 
I
> have no notion of what that has to do with the price of cheese but pass 
it
> on for the sake of a grin.
> >
> > My point in even raising this question on this list is  to suggest 
that
> far too often, teachers and parents make decisions about how children
> should
> learn that have the effect of limiting their progress.  I am tired of
> dealing with students coming into college essentially illiterate,
> especially
> when technology can make such a difference.  The issue ought to be
> information acquisition and retention, not "reading".
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > Paul Edwards, Director
> > Access Services, North Campus
> > Phone: (305) 237-1146
> > Fax: (305-237-1831
> > TTY: (305) 237-1413
> > Email: pedwards@xxxxxxxx
> > home email: edwpaul@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sharon Jackson [mailto:dolly1025@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 3:18 PM
> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: about braille
> >
> >
> > In my graduate classes, we have debated over the issues of print 
and/or
> > Braille are forms of reading media, but screen readers and audiotapes
> are
> > not.  I believe this is true since the screen readers and audiotapes
> read
> to
> > you while the others you read yourself.  I guess it would depend on 
the
> > person and how much information they can retain from any form of
> information
> > access.  I believe everyone should use what options are available to
> them,
> > therefore, students should learn what is available and base their
> options
> > according to their preferences and not just what they are shown.
> >
> > Sharon
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Kellie Hartmann" <kellhart@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 2:08 PM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: about braille
> >
> >
> > > Hi Liz,
> > > Your story about the child using only CCTV is just the kind of thing
> that
> > > irritates me so much. That girl will probably get into college and
> wish
> > that
> > > she knew braille, especially if she happens to lose what vision she
> has.
> > >
> > > I really believe that reading braille and reading with audio are two
> > totally
> > > different things, just as much as reading print and listening are
> > different.
> > > I do enjoy audiobooks, but I process information from them and from
> > braille
> > > in very different ways. If there is information that I really need 
to
> > study
> > > and remember I do much better if it's in braille. I once had to use 
an
> > audio
> > > version of a linguistics text, and although it was beautifully done 
I
> > found
> > > myself having to take extensive notes just to keep my mind focused
> > > sufficiently. If the book had been in braille I would have taken 
very
> few
> > > notes, if any. I know that other people don't have this dichotomy 
and
> can
> > > absorb audio material as well as they absorb print, but it would be
> > > impossible to know that with a young child, so they need to be 
taught
> > both.
> > > As you say, everyone will eventually make their own choices about 
what
> > > they've been taught, but the more choices you have the better.
> > >
> > > As for spelling, braille can cause its own problems there too. When 
I
> was
> > in
> > > school they made sure that I wrote the answers to my spelling tests 
in
> > grade
> > > 1, and later I typed them on a typewriter. That's one thing that 
using
> a
> > > computer can help with. I had to laugh the other night when I wanted
> to
> > > write in my journal. I've been using so many foreign language 
braille
> > codes
> > > as well as doing most of my writing on the computer, and it took me 
a
> > while
> > > to remember how to type in grade 2 braille. <lol> I read braille 
every
> > day,
> > > but I guess I don't write it very often anymore.
> > > Kellie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


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