[bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
- From: "Kaitlyn Hill" <Kaitlyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:00:20 -0700
Hi Sarah,
I liked your comment:
<<Remember that things are easier if no one first scares you off by telling
you the job will be very hard. :-)>>
I use to sing with a guy named Matt and it didn't matter what you gave him
to do he would say, "A piece of cake".
I asked him one day why everything to him was a piece of cake. Well, it's
just some pieces of cake are bigger than others:)
Another example of this was about a month ago when I went to Sheila's for a
Reiki workshop. Knowing Sheila I didn't ask a lot about it. I thought we
would do some work and well, Maybe I'd learn something. On Sunday after I
realized that the two days of training made me a level I Reiki practitioner.
So often times not knowing how "hard" something is can often make it easier.
I hope everyone is having a great summer!
Went to Office Max today and had 11 more books cut. Some of those were from
the box that Monica sent me. I think next I am going to look into a paper
cutter. It looks like for about $200 I can get one that will cut about 50
sheets. The way I have been scanning it will pay for itself in a year:)
I do really like this service. Between what I have scanned in here and
downloaded from the site I have more quality reading material on topics I
enjoy than I have had in a long time.
Kaitlyn
Level III Practitioner
Reconnective healing and the Reconnection
Level 1 Reiki healing
Kaitlyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Find your vessel and fill it wih the light and with the light behind the
light,Then let the light shine for the world so others may know the truth
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sarah Van
Oosterwijck
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 1:17 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
Your theoretical situation makes getting rid of the stripper even more
important because a person in your theoretical situation who might need
access to page numbers would probably not be able to find or use the ones
that exist in the DAISY book. Besides find and replace is an option in
absolutely any word processor. Now don't jjump on me and say you've found
something that didn't have find and replace, because something like notepad
doesn't necessarily have it, but then it isn't a Word processor, and I
don't know why a person who has a computer wouldn't have a word processor
of some kind. <smile>
I do think the submittors and validators should remove the headers, though.
There shouldn't be any reason why the reader should have to do it. Of
course, I also think anyone who uses a computer or notetaker should learn
something about how to use them, and I consider find and replace a beginner
technique not only something for advanced users. Advanced find and replace
is using commands to find formatting characters as well as text strings.
Most documents you obtain from someone and put on your note taker are a bit
of a mess and some repairs are necessary, so everyone who gets one should
be tought how to do a little editing. Remember that things are easier if
no one first scares you off by telling you the job will be very hard. :-)
Right now it seems like bookshare considers BRF a second rate format
because they retain nothing of the original books formatting information,
which doesn't have to be that way. Also, if you do a quick search it is
DAISY that the user is first presented with. I usually do use DAISY and
convert it myself if I wish to read it on my braille note, but I don't
think BRF should be considered less important than DAISY, because it seems
to be most peoples primary format. It also can be accessed on more
devices.
That reminds me that someone said DAISY was the format that Kurzweil
downloads from bookshare, but in actuality you get the choice of which
format you prefer.
It doesn't make sense to me that people must go through many tests and
learn how to operate just about all equipment that is not a computer, but
people are expected to just sit down and start using a computer without any
prior training, testing, or information. No wonder why people and
businesses have so many problems. Using adaptive technology is even more
complex, so users shouldn't have to fend for themselves unless they choose
to learn independently.
Sarah Van Oosterwijck
Assistive Technology Trainer
http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 9:02 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
> Rui,
>
> I'm by no means an expert, but I want to throw a theoretical situation
> out there and see what you think. Anyone else is certainly welcome to
> answer as well.
>
> Let's say I'm a Bookshare member, a reader, not a volunteer of any ilk. I
> have *some* adaptive technology, like a screen reader and a notetaker
> such as a Braillenote or Pac Mate with braille display. However, I don't
> have a scanning program such as OB or Kurzweil. Can I use another program
> to strip the header/footer info? I haven't looked into it, but does MS
> Word do it? Or maybe Duxbury? Not to say that the average Bookshare user
> would have Duxbury, it's not too likely in fact. Essentially, I'm asking
> if there is a feasible way to remove the info, *if* the person wants to
> do so and doesn't have the adaptive technology to address the need?
>
> What do you all think?
> Scott
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:49 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
>
>
>> Hi Scott:
>> As I stated before:
>>
>> "Regular print books have headers, some have footers, that is part of a
>> print book.
>> If we want digital copies of print books then, take the good with the
>> bad."
>>
>> If I don't want to read the headers, I can strip them out myself or use
>> an automated tool (k1000) to do so."
>>
>> Scott and Jim, nothing prevents you from stripping those headers out
>> yourself before you begin reading.
>> It would then leave the material in the master copy for those of us who
>> want it.
>>
>> In fact, I would do more touch-up work on things like headers but I
>> don't because the first couple of lines of each page seem to be the
>> strippers domain and therefore my efforts would be futile.
>>
>> The ironic thing is that we spend time on this list devising and testing
>> various stripper countermeasures and bookshare is aware of this and does
>> not discourage it.
>>
>> Keri Carmos saw that full well with hp6.
>> (It's like rolling a boulder up hill)
>>
>>
>> Jim:
>> You make some interesting points.
>> As someone has previously mentioned, if the headers are too mangled,
>> not even the stripper will strip them.
>>
>> The stripper is just plain erratic. It does different things to the
>> same header within the same book.
>>
>> This is clearly a case where the benefit is not worth the cost. not with
>> all this collateral damage being done.
>>
>> I urge you all to continue doing what your doing. (if anything try to
>> validate a little more so we can cut down the step 1 page)
>>
>> I will drop this issue for now, but i am not forgetting about it and I
>> trust after these last couple days, Bookshare won't forget either.
>>
>> -- Rui
>> a 2004 Volunteer of the year
>> and a 2005 pain in the rear. (smile)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:58 PM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
>>
>>
>>> Let me speak first as a reader of Bookshare books. I mostly read
>>> fiction, with the occasional pop culture book thrown in for variety. I
>>> read almost all these books in Braille. I don't want to see repeated
>>> text such as page numbers, author/title info, etc. If people want to be
>>> able to see that info, there should be an option to include or exclude
>>> this from your book. Chapters and other major headings should be
>>> included of course, and I believe that problem will be addressed.
>>>
>>> As a validator, I can't think of a good enough reason at this point to
>>> stop submitting books and validating them. That includes the stripper
>>> issue. If we stop submitting or validating works, we're hurting a much
>>> larger group of people than ourselves. The ultimate purpose of
>>> Bookshare is to give access to books. There are still many books rated
>>> fair on the website, and in the past I'm sure there were a much higher
>>> percentage of "fair" books submitted to the site, but we wouldn't have
>>> wanted those books held back from being available just because they
>>> were poorly scanned. I don't want people deprived of books just because
>>> of a missing chapter heading, or because there aren't page numbers
>>> included.
>>>
>>> Let's take things slow and easy folks.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:28 PM
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Where are those contrarians?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello:
>>>>
>>>> I would like to here from people who disagree with me.
>>>> Let me know why you think the current setup makes sense.
>>>>
>>>> I do not mean for people to play devil's advocate with this.
>>>> I'm asking if anyone seriously disagrees with the centiments expressed
>>>> over the last 30 hours.
>>>>
>>>> (There is a method to my madness)
>>>>
>>>> -- Rui (who is probably liked at Benetech right now as much as the
>>>> plague)
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Deborah Kent Stein" <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:26 PM
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Charlyn and Bookshare community,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think a petition is an excellent idea. Charlyn, would you like to
>>>>> put it
>>>>> together? Rui, would you put it on the Bookshare Scans site?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also think we should select a day to make phone calls and send
>>>>> emails to
>>>>> the Bookshare staff calling on them to turn off the stripper. How
>>>>> about
>>>>> Thursday, July 28, one week after this most recent stripper
>>>>> discussion
>>>>> began.
>>>>>
>>>>> We need to take in the fact that, as Bookshare volunteers and users,
>>>>> we must
>>>>> have direct say on policy issues. Right now this list is virtually
>>>>> the only
>>>>> vehicle we have for reaching the staff, and it is clearly
>>>>> ineffective. The
>>>>> stripper issue highlights a need for a more formalized means of
>>>>> communication. Maybe we should develop an advisory committee which
>>>>> can
>>>>> bring concerns to the staff and have a real voice in policymaking.
>>>>>
>>>>> As blind people, most of us have grown up with the sense that we're
>>>>> lucky to
>>>>> get whatever reading matter is offered to us. We had better be
>>>>> appreciative
>>>>> and not complain. On the title page of every book from the National
>>>>> Library
>>>>> Service we read that the book has been produced for the blind and
>>>>> physically
>>>>> handicapped "with the kind permission of the publisher." That line
>>>>> about
>>>>> "the kind permission" says so much! Do sighted people need anyone's
>>>>> kind
>>>>> permission in order to read? I AM in fact extraordinarily grateful
>>>>> to the
>>>>> volunteers and others who have spent countless hours putting books
>>>>> into
>>>>> Braille and recorded formats for us, and to those who have worked to
>>>>> change
>>>>> copyright laws and make our special-format books possible! Most of
>>>>> us would
>>>>> not be literate, educated, contributing members of society without
>>>>> their
>>>>> help! But I think that our lifelong dependence upon others to
>>>>> provide us
>>>>> with books, and the constant feeling that we must be grateful and
>>>>> that we
>>>>> can't expect too much, do take a toll.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bookshare is different. Bookshare is a program which is not only FOR
>>>>> us,
>>>>> but BY us. We, the volunteers, determine what books go into the
>>>>> collection,
>>>>> and we ourselves make them available. We are not "only volunteers"
>>>>> who have
>>>>> no right to determine policy. We are the backbone of the program - a
>>>>> program which is created to meet our needs and those of other blind
>>>>> and
>>>>> print-disabled people. The Bookshare staff are not users of
>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>> materials. They do not live with the inaccessibility of print; they
>>>>> don't
>>>>> experience our issues from the inside. It is absolutely essential
>>>>> that they
>>>>> listen to what we have to say.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bookshare is an incredible program, and I believe in it utterly. It
>>>>> has the
>>>>> potential to narrow the print gap for us as no other program ever has
>>>>> before. But we need to take a stand and insist that it be the
>>>>> quality
>>>>> program we all deserve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Debbie
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:11 AM
>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe we could put together a pteition of some sort and put a notice
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the volunteer website as well to see if we could get enough people
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sign it to send to bookshare requesting them to stop using the
>>>>>> program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pam Quinn
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:02 PM
>>>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We take pride in our submissions and I just don't think a lot of the
>>>>>> bookshare staff understands how angry and frustrated we are when we
>>>>>> see
>>>>>> that our submissions have been mangled. And for what? I just don't
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> it. Why do they insist on holding on to that useless program that
>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>> wants? Seems to me if anything, dropping it would mean one less step
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> less work in putting the books on the site.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use chapter headings for my breaking points in .mp3 files too,
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> I'm lucky enough to have them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It might not be our decision and they might not want to listen to
>>>>>> us,
>>>>>> but that would be unfortunate, because the volunteers and
>>>>>> subscribers
>>>>>> have a major role in determining the future of bookshare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >I have seriously considered not submitting some books I have
>>>>>> >scanned
>>>>>> >just
>>>>>> >because I thought they would be of little use after the stripper
>>>>>> finished
>>>>>> >with them. I put a lot of work in to what I submit and it is
>>>>>> >really
>>>>>> >upsetting to see the final result when my original looked so nice,
>>>>>> >and
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> >is only a volunteer's view. I also am upset by the messes that I
>>>>>> >come
>>>>>> >accross when I am reading, even for pleasure. I use the chapter
>>>>>> headings
>>>>>> >as my MP3 creation breaking points, so if they aren't there I have
>>>>>> >a
>>>>>> big
>>>>>> >mess!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >I don't really like throwing fits, and I won't on this list because
>>>>>> >it
>>>>>> >seems to serve little purpose, but the fits are completely
>>>>>> >justified.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >If i submitted a book in DAISY and BRF format instead of in RTF
>>>>>> >would
>>>>>> >the
>>>>>> >normal automated processes be skipped? That is the only thing I
>>>>>> >can
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> >of to rescue books where the headers, headings, and page numbers
>>>>>> >are
>>>>>> >invaluable.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Sarah Van Oosterwijck
>>>>>> >Assistive Technology Trainer http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
>>>>>> >----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >From: "Deborah Kent Stein" <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:10 PM
>>>>>> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Hear, hear! I agree 200%!
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> We have been telling the Bookshare staff about our concerns,
>>>>>> >> politely
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> but firmly, literally for years. Despite all the talk, nothing
>>>>>> >> has
>>>>>> >> changed. I am beginning to think we need to take stronger action.
>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> ARE volunteers.
>>>>>> >> We do not have to contribute the thousands of hours we put into
>>>>>> >> this
>>>>>> >> program. And Bookshare cannot survive without us. Do we need to
>>>>>> >> say
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> >> will have to stop scanning and validating until we know that
>>>>>> >> someone
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> >> there is really listening to us, and taking action? It should
>>>>>> >> not
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> >> to
>>>>>> >> come down to threats and strikes, but many of us are at our wit's
>>>>>> end.
>>>>>> >> What
>>>>>> >> is it going to take to turn off the stripper and stop mangling
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> books
>>>>>> >> we
>>>>>> >> work so hard to make available?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Debbie
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >> From: "Rui" <goldwave@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:16 AM
>>>>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] stripper and colatteral damage
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> Good Afternoon:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> At the bookshare users meeting at NFB, I made it very clear to
>>>>>> >>> Jim
>>>>>> >>> (like
>>>>>> >> he didn't know already) the issues with the stripper and why i
>>>>>> >> think
>>>>>> >> it should be removed.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> The whole concept of the stripper bothers me, not just the fact
>>>>>> >>> it
>>>>>> >>> does
>>>>>> >> more than it's supposed too.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Its very reason for being agrivates me.
>>>>>> >>> Regular print books have headers, some have footers, that is
>>>>>> >>> part of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> a
>>>>>> >> print book.
>>>>>> >>> If we want digital copies of print books then, take the good
>>>>>> >>> with
>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>> >>> bad.
>>>>>> >>> Do not sanitize the book to make it more access technology
>>>>>> >>> friendly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> The
>>>>>> >> very fact that is accessible already does that.
>>>>>> >>> If i don't want to read the headers, i can strip them out myself
>>>>>> >>> or
>>>>>> >>> use
>>>>>> >>> my
>>>>>> >> own automated tool to do so.
>>>>>> >>> However, If by chance I do want them there, I simply do not get
>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>> >> option with Bookshare!!!
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Words do not do justice to how much this issue ticks me off.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Bottomline, this process does not serve the community that it
>>>>>> >>> was
>>>>>> >>> designed
>>>>>> >> to assist.
>>>>>> >>> -- Rui
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > From: Mike Pietruk <pietruk@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> > Date: 2005/07/21 Thu AM 11:00:39 EDT
>>>>>> >>> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> >>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > Pam
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > agreed! It's inconsistent and unpredictable. And the
>>>>>> >>> > problems
>>>>>> >>> > relative
>>>>>> >>> > to it have been discussed repeatedly.
>>>>>> >>> > The Powers-that-be are all too aware of the damage the
>>>>>> >>> > stripper
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> >> caused
>>>>>> >>> > but seem to have shoved it on the back burner probably due to
>>>>>> >>> > more
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> > pressing issues to deal with. It is a shame that it cannot be
>>>>>> >>> > dealt with; but Marissa, prior to her leaving, pretty much
>>>>>> >>> > outlined where it stands. So I wouldn't expect much change
>>>>>> >>> > regarding the stripper as any change would require some sort
>>>>>> >>> > of
>>>>>> >>> > policy change plus programmer action. Conceptually, the
>>>>>> >>> > stripper
>>>>>> >>> > makes sense; practically, it has been a
>>>>>> >> dismal
>>>>>> >>> > failure breading as much (or perhaps even more) than it has
>>>>>> >>> > repaired. It's not our decision as we are volunteers, not
>>>>>> >>> > decision-makers.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>>>>> >> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 7/19/2005
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 7/22/2005
>
>
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