[bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
- From: "Julie Morales" <inlovewithchrist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:10:09 -0700
Hi, Cindy. I know what you mean, but if the page numbers follow the pattern
of the header, either as a header or a footer with a blank line between it
and the text, it still gets stripped. However, at least with the page
numbers, they're not completely gone. They get placed in the DAISY file
tags, so if you use DAISY, you can still access them, but for the rest of
us, they're gone. I have seen some files...the book I'm reading now is a
perfect example, where page numbers are there, and I know they're page
numbers because there are also the numbers we get from the braille
formatting, so this file has both and they correspond with the table of
contents, so there are some books that do have them, but many of them don't.
I think that's at least part of the problem...the inconsistency. Take care.
Julie Morales
inlovewithchrist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Windows/MSN Messenger (but not email):
mercy0421@xxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:49 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
Hi, Julie,
I think you misunderstood me (smile). I delete the
headers but leave the page numbers when they appear at
the top. I copy the headers and replace with nothing
-- Scott, I do that with Word-- whether they are
garbled or intact. That gets rid of most of them most
of the time. The ones that are left I delete
manually.
I've started putting the page number on the line below
the first line, where the header was, which I leave as
an empty line. Somebody, however, posted today that
the page numbers were gone even though the submitter
or validator had deleted the header and left the page
numbers. I tried putting the word page on the first
line with the page number underneath but was told that
that wasn't necessary and that it was annoying to hear
the word page over and over again.
The only solution I can imagine, and I'm not the most
imaginative person in the world, is to get rid of the
stripper and let validators and/or readers eliminate
the headers themselves. That would enable page numbers
and chapter titles to remain intact.
Cindy
--- Julie Morales <inlovewithchrist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> Hi, Cindy. Your idea is a good one...but there's a
> problem. The stripper
> removes the page numbers, too. They're not totally
> lost if one uses the
> DAISY files, but for those like me who use .brf, the
> page numbers are gone,
> too. Take care.
> Julie Morales
> inlovewithchrist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Windows/MSN Messenger (but not email):
> mercy0421@xxxxxxxxxxx
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:08 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those
> contrarians?
>
>
> Kenneth,
>
> I'm not sure if my answer to Jim got posted, but ...
>
> I'm not sure if it would work, but my idea is that
> the stripper be eliminated, since it seems to strip
> pages along with the header, even though it isn't
> supposed to, from what we've been told. The
> validators' job would include eliminating the
> headers
> by hand, or , where it's possible, by a global
> replace
> with nothing (I've done that many times and it works
> well) but leaving in page numbers of putting them in
> if they aren't there. That would solve the problem
> Jim
> mentioned of some people who listen to books and/or
> don't have machines that can eliminated headers for
> themselves. Whether a validator does the minimum of
> checking copyrights and being sure that all the
> pages
> are there, eliminating headers wouldn't take that
> much
> more time, and those of us who read and correct as
> we
> go along probably do it already. It really isn't a
> big
> deal for a validator--and certainly the small
> amount
> of work and time that's involved is worth it to
> ensure
> that the Bookshare member and reader has page
> numbers
> but not headers. I don't see what function headers
> have. I wish a publisher of editor could tell us. I
> wonder if it isn't just a left-over tradition from
> when books were first published and monks and
> scribes
> decorated books. I'll have to do some research.
>
> Cindy
>
> -- "Kenneth A. Cross" <crossk@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > I just can't help repeating the point that
> stripping
> > page numbers
> > invalidates the book for any serious researcher or
> > teacher or leader of a
> > discussion among blind and sighted users. What we
> > end up with is a service
> > only for the casual reader. That does not mean we
> > don't have a positive
> > resource, but it does limit its use, particularly
> in
> > areas where employment
> > could result from a more controlled treatment.
> >
> > I personally have submitted a large number of
> > materials which could be used
> > in research. They can't be, because one would
> have
> > to procure a print book
> > and a sighted helper to use them. To me, that is
> a
> > great concern,
> > particularly because I, too, would like to use
> some
> > of the materials on the
> > system and have the ability to refer to specific
> > pages in discussions and
> > teaching.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:49 AM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those
> > contrarians?
> >
> >
> > > Hi Scott:
> > > As I stated before:
> > >
> > > "Regular print books have headers, some have
> > footers, that is part of a
> > > print book.
> > > If we want digital copies of print books then,
> > take the good with the
> > bad."
> > >
> > > If I don't want to read the headers, I can strip
> > them out myself or use
> > an
> > > automated tool (k1000) to do so."
> > >
> > > Scott and Jim, nothing prevents you from
> stripping
> > those headers out
> > > yourself before you begin reading.
> > > It would then leave the material in the master
> > copy for those of us who
> > want
> > > it.
> > >
> > > In fact, I would do more touch-up work on things
> > like headers but I don't
> > > because the first couple of lines of each page
> > seem to be the strippers
> > > domain and therefore my efforts would be futile.
> > >
> > > The ironic thing is that we spend time on this
> > list devising and testing
> > > various stripper countermeasures and bookshare
> is
> > aware of this and does
> > not
> > > discourage it.
> > >
> > > Keri Carmos saw that full well with hp6.
> > > (It's like rolling a boulder up hill)
> > >
> > >
> > > Jim:
> > > You make some interesting points.
> > > As someone has previously mentioned, if the
> > headers are too mangled, not
> > > even the stripper will strip them.
> > >
> > > The stripper is just plain erratic. It does
> > different things to the
> > same
> > > header within the same book.
> > >
> > > This is clearly a case where the benefit is not
> > worth the cost. not with
> > all
> > > this collateral damage being done.
> > >
> > > I urge you all to continue doing what your
> doing.
> > (if anything try to
> > > validate a little more so we can cut down the
> step
> > 1 page)
> > >
> > > I will drop this issue for now, but i am not
> > forgetting about it and I
> > trust
> > > after these last couple days, Bookshare won't
> > forget either.
> > >
> > > -- Rui
> > > a 2004 Volunteer of the year
> > > and a 2005 pain in the rear. (smile)
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:58 PM
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those
> > contrarians?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Let me speak first as a reader of Bookshare
> > books. I mostly read
> > fiction,
> > > > with the occasional pop culture book thrown in
> > for variety. I read
> > almost
> > > > all these books in Braille. I don't want to
> see
> > repeated text such as
> > page
> > > > numbers, author/title info, etc. If people
> want
> > to be able to see that
> > > > info, there should be an option to include or
> > exclude this from your
> > book.
> > > > Chapters and other major headings should be
> > included of course, and I
> > > > believe that problem will be addressed.
> > > >
> > > > As a validator, I can't think of a good enough
> > reason at this point to
> > > > stop submitting books and validating them.
> That
> > includes the stripper
> > > > issue. If we stop submitting or validating
> > works, we're hurting a much
> > > > larger group of people than ourselves. The
> > ultimate purpose of Bookshare
> > > > is to give access to books. There are still
> many
> > books rated fair on the
> > > > website, and in the past I'm sure there were a
> > much higher percentage of
> > > > "fair" books submitted to the site, but we
> > wouldn't have wanted those
> > > > books held back from being available just
> > because they were poorly
> > > > scanned. I don't want people deprived of books
> > just because of a missing
> > > > chapter heading, or because there aren't page
> > numbers included.
> > > >
> > > > Let's take things slow and easy folks.
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:28 PM
> > > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Where are those
> > contrarians?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Hello:
> > > >>
> > > >> I would like to here from people who disagree
> > with me.
> > > >> Let me know why you think the current setup
> > makes sense.
> > > >>
> > > >> I do not mean for people to play devil's
> > advocate with this.
> > > >> I'm asking if anyone seriously disagrees with
> > the sentiments expressed
> > > >> over the last 30 hours.
> > > >>
> > > >> (There is a method to my madness)
> > > >>
> > > >> -- Rui (who is probably liked at Benetech
> right
> > now as much as the
> > > >> plague)
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Deborah Kent Stein"
> <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
> > > >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:26 PM
> > > >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
> > colatteral damage
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Dear Charlyn and Bookshare community,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I think a petition is an excellent idea.
> > Charlyn, would you like to
> > put
> > > >>> it
> > > >>> together? Rui, would you put it on the
> > Bookshare Scans site?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I also think we should select a day to make
> > phone calls and send
> > emails
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> the Bookshare staff calling on them to turn
> > off the stripper. How
> > > >>> about
> > > >>> Thursday, July 28, one week after this most
> > recent stripper discussion
> > > >>> began.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We need to take in the fact that, as
> Bookshare
> > volunteers and users,
> > we
> > > >>> must
> > > >>> have direct say on policy issues. Right now
> > this list is virtually
> > the
> > > >>> only
> > > >>> vehicle we have for reaching the staff, and
> it
> > is clearly ineffective.
> > > >>> The
> > > >>> stripper issue highlights a need for a more
> > formalized means of
> > > >>> communication. Maybe we should develop an
> > advisory committee which
> > can
> > > >>> bring concerns to the staff and have a real
> > voice in policymaking.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As blind people, most of us have grown up
> with
> > the sense that we're
> > > >>> lucky to
> > > >>> get whatever reading matter is offered to
> us.
> > We had better be
> > > >>> appreciative
> > > >>> and not complain. On the title page of
> every
> > book from the National
> > > >>> Library
> > > >>> Service we read that the book has been
> > produced for the blind and
> > > >>> physically
> > > >>> handicapped "with the kind permission of the
> > publisher." That line
> > > >>> about
> > > >>> "the kind permission" says so much! Do
> > sighted people need anyone's
> > > >>> kind
> > > >>> permission in order to read? I AM in fact
> > extraordinarily grateful to
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> volunteers and others who have spent
> countless
> > hours putting books
> > into
> > > >>> Braille and recorded formats for us, and to
> > those who have worked to
> > > >>> change
> > > >>> copyright laws and make our special-format
> > books possible! Most of us
> > > >>> would
> > > >>> not be literate, educated, contributing
> > members of society without
> > their
> > > >>> help! But I think that our lifelong
> > dependence upon others to provide
> > > >>> us
> > > >>> with books, and the constant feeling that we
> > must be grateful and that
> > > >>> we
> > > >>> can't expect too much, do take a toll.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Bookshare is different. Bookshare is a
> > program which is not only FOR
> > > >>> us,
> > > >>> but BY us. We, the volunteers, determine
> what
> > books go into the
> > > >>> collection,
> > > >>> and we ourselves make them available. We
> are
> > not "only volunteers"
> > who
> > > >>> have
> > > >>> no right to determine policy. We are the
> > backbone of the program - a
> > > >>> program which is created to meet our needs
> and
> > those of other blind
> > and
> > > >>> print-disabled people. The Bookshare staff
> > are not users of Bookshare
> > > >>> materials. They do not live with the
> > inaccessibility of print; they
> > > >>> don't
> > > >>> experience our issues from the inside. It
> is
> > absolutely essential
> > that
> > > >>> they
> > > >>> listen to what we have to say.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Bookshare is an incredible program, and I
> > believe in it utterly. It
> > has
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> potential to narrow the print gap for us as
> no
> > other program ever has
> > > >>> before. But we need to take a stand and
> > insist that it be the quality
> > > >>> program we all deserve.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Debbie
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>> From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:11 AM
> > > >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
> > colatteral damage
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Maybe we could put together a pteition of
> > some sort and put a notice
> > on
> > > >>>> the volunteer website as well to see if we
> > could get enough people to
> > > >>>> sign it to send to bookshare requesting
> them
> > to stop using the
> > program.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>>>
> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Pam Quinn
> > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:02 PM
> > > >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
> > colatteral damage
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> We take pride in our submissions and I just
> > don't think a lot of the
> > > >>>> bookshare staff understands how angry and
> > frustrated we are when we
> > see
> > > >>>> that our submissions have been mangled. And
> > for what? I just don't
> > get
> > > >>>> it. Why do they insist on holding on to
> that
> > useless program that
> > > >>>> nobody
> > > >>>> wants? Seems to me if anything, dropping it
> > would mean one less step
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>> less work in putting the books on the site.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I use chapter headings for my breaking
> points
> > in .mp3 files too, when
> > > >>>> I'm lucky enough to have them.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> It might not be our decision and they might
> > not want to listen to us,
> > > >>>> but that would be unfortunate, because the
> > volunteers and subscribers
> > > >>>> have a major role in determining the future
> > of bookshare.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Pam
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Original message:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> >I have seriously considered not submitting
> > some books I have scanned
> > > >>>> >just
> > > >>>> >because I thought they would be of little
> > use after the stripper
> > > >>>> finished
> > > >>>> >with them. I put a lot of work in to what
> I
> > submit and it is really
> > > >>>> >upsetting to see the final result when my
> > original looked so nice,
> > and
> > > >>>> that
> > > >>>> >is only a volunteer's view. I also am
> upset
> > by the messes that I
> > come
> > > >>>> >accross when I am reading, even for
> > pleasure. I use the chapter
> > > >>>> headings
> > > >>>> >as my MP3 creation breaking points, so if
> > they aren't there I have a
> > > >>>> big
> > > >>>> >mess!
> > > >>>> >
> > > >>>> >I don't really like throwing fits, and I
> > won't on this list because
> > it
> > > >>>> >seems to serve little purpose, but the
> fits
> > are completely
> > justified.
> > > >>>> >
> > > >>>> >If i submitted a book in DAISY and BRF
> > format instead of in RTF
> > would
> > > >>>> >the
> > > >>>> >normal automated processes be skipped?
> That
> > is the only thing I can
> > > >>>> think
> > > >>>> >of to rescue books where the headers,
> > headings, and page numbers are
> > > >>>> >invaluable.
> > > >>>> >
> > > >>>> >Sarah Van Oosterwijck
> > > >>>> >Assistive Technology Trainer
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
> > > >>>> >----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>> >From: "Deborah Kent Stein"
> > <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
> > > >>>> >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>>> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:10 PM
> > > >>>> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
> > colatteral damage
> > > >>>> >
> > > >>>> >
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >> Hear, hear! I agree 200%!
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >> We have been telling the Bookshare staff
> > about our concerns,
> > > >>>> >> politely
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> >> but firmly, literally for years.
> Despite
> > all the talk, nothing
> > has
> > > >>>> >> changed. I am beginning to think we need
> > to take stronger action.
> > > >>>> >> We
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> >> ARE volunteers.
> > > >>>> >> We do not have to contribute the
> thousands
> > of hours we put into
> > this
> > > >>>> >> program. And Bookshare cannot survive
> > without us. Do we need to
> > > >>>> >> say
> > > >>>> we
> > > >>>> >> will have to stop scanning and
> validating
> > until we know that
> > someone
> > > >>>> out
> > > >>>> >> there is really listening to us, and
> > taking action? It should not
> > > >>>> have
> > > >>>> >> to
> > > >>>> >> come down to threats and strikes, but
> many
> > of us are at our wit's
> > > >>>> end.
> > > >>>> >> What
> > > >>>> >> is it going to take to turn off the
> > stripper and stop mangling the
> > > >>>> books
> > > >>>> >> we
> > > >>>> >> work so hard to make available?
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >> Debbie
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>> >> From: "Rui" <goldwave@xxxxxxx>
> > > >>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:16 AM
> > > >>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] stripper and
> > colatteral damage
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>> Good Afternoon:
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>> At the bookshare users meeting at NFB,
> I
> > made it very clear to
> > Jim
> > > >>>> >>> (like
> > > >>>> >> he didn't know already) the issues with
> > the stripper and why i
> > think
> > > >>>> >> it should be removed.
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>> The whole concept of the stripper
> bothers
> > me, not just the fact
> > it
> > > >>>> >>> does
> > > >>>> >> more than it's supposed too.
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>> Its very reason for being agrivates me.
> > > >>>> >>> Regular print books have headers, some
> > have footers, that is part
> > > >>>> >>> of
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> >>> a
> > > >>>> >> print book.
> > > >>>> >>> If we want digital copies of print
> books
> > then, take the good with
> > > >>>> >>> the
> > > >>>> >>> bad.
> > > >>>> >>> Do not sanitize the book to make it
> more
> > access technology
> > > >>>> >>> friendly.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> >>> The
> > > >>>> >> very fact that is accessible already
> does
> > that.
> > > >>>> >>> If i don't want to read the headers, i
> > can strip them out myself
> > or
> > > >>>> >>> use
> > > >>>> >>> my
> > > >>>> >> own automated tool to do so.
> > > >>>> >>> However, If by chance I do want them
> > there, I simply do not get
> > > >>>> >>> that
> > > >>>> >> option with Bookshare!!!
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>> Words do not do justice to how much
> this
> > issue ticks me off.
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>> Bottomline, this process does not serve
> > the community that it was
> > > >>>> >>> designed
> > > >>>> >> to assist.
> > > >>>> >>> -- Rui
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>> >
> > > >>>> >>> > From: Mike Pietruk
> <pietruk@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>>> >>> > Date: 2005/07/21 Thu AM 11:00:39 EDT
> > > >>>> >>> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>>> >>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re:
> stripper
> > > >>>> >>> >
> > > >>>> >>> > Pam
> > > >>>> >>> >
> > > >>>> >>> > agreed! It's inconsistent and
> > unpredictable. And the problems
> > > >>>> >>> > relative
> > > >>>> >>> > to it have been discussed repeatedly.
> > > >>>> >>> > The Powers-that-be are all too aware
> of
> > the damage the stripper
> > > >>>> has
> > > >>>> >> caused
> > > >>>> >>> > but seem to have shoved it on the
> back
> > burner probably due to
> > > >>>> >>> > more
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> >>> > pressing issues to deal with. It is a
> > shame that it cannot be
> > > >>>> >>> > dealt with; but Marissa, prior to her
> > leaving, pretty much
> > > >>>> >>> > outlined where it stands. So I
> wouldn't
> > expect much change
> > > >>>> >>> > regarding the stripper as any change
> > would require some sort of
> > > >>>> >>> > policy change plus programmer action.
> > Conceptually, the
> > stripper
> > > >>>> >>> > makes sense; practically, it has been
> a
> > > >>>> >> dismal
> > > >>>> >>> > failure breading as much (or perhaps
> > even more) than it has
> > > >>>> >>> > repaired. It's not our decision as we
> > are volunteers, not
> > > >>>> >>> > decision-makers.
> > > >>>> >>> >
> > > >>>> >>> >
> > > >>>> >>> >
> > > >>>> >>> >
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >> --
> > > >>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > >>>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > >>>> >> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database:
> > 267.9.2/52 - Release Date:
> > > >>>> 7/19/2005
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >>
> > > >>>> >
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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