I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine why not. Even those who do the minimum, it doesn't take very long. If worse came to worse, and they didn't, the headers, *and* the page numbers and the chapter titles would still be there -- better, I should think, than having the page numbers and chapter titles missing. (smile) Cindy --- Sharon Jackson <dolly1025@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > But would all validators be willing to do this? > > Sharon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:08 AM > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those > contrarians? > > > > Kenneth, > > > > I'm not sure if my answer to Jim got posted, but > ... > > > > I'm not sure if it would work, but my idea is > that > > the stripper be eliminated, since it seems to > strip > > pages along with the header, even though it isn't > > supposed to, from what we've been told. The > > validators' job would include eliminating the > headers > > by hand, or , where it's possible, by a global > replace > > with nothing (I've done that many times and it > works > > well) but leaving in page numbers of putting them > in > > if they aren't there. That would solve the problem > Jim > > mentioned of some people who listen to books > and/or > > don't have machines that can eliminated headers > for > > themselves. Whether a validator does the minimum > of > > checking copyrights and being sure that all the > pages > > are there, eliminating headers wouldn't take that > much > > more time, and those of us who read and correct as > we > > go along probably do it already. It really isn't a > big > > deal for a validator--and certaiinly the small > amount > > of work and time that's involved is worth it to > ensure > > that the Bookshare member and reader has page > numbers > > but not headers. I don't see what function headers > > have. I wish a publisher of editor could tell us. > I > > wonder if it isn't just a left-over tradition from > > when books were first published and monks and > scribes > > decorated books. I'll have to do some research. > > > > Cindy > > > > -- "Kenneth A. Cross" <crossk@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > >> I just can't help repeating the point that > stripping > >> page numbers > >> invalidates the book for any serious researcher > or > >> teacher or leader of a > >> discussion among blind and sighted users. What > we > >> end up with is a service > >> only for the casual reader. That does not mean we > >> don't have a positive > >> resource, but it does limit its use, particularly > in > >> areas where employment > >> could result from a more controlled treatment. > >> > >> I personally have submitted a large number of > >> materials which could be used > >> in research. They can't be, because one would > have > >> to procure a print book > >> and a sighted helper to use them. To me, that is > a > >> great concern, > >> particularly because I, too, would like to use > some > >> of the materials on the > >> system and have the ability to refer to specific > >> pages in discussions and > >> teaching. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx> > >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:49 AM > >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those > >> contrarians? > >> > >> > >> > Hi Scott: > >> > As I stated before: > >> > > >> > "Regular print books have headers, some have > >> footers, that is part of a > >> > print book. > >> > If we want digital copies of print books then, > >> take the good with the > >> bad." > >> > > >> > If I don't want to read the headers, I can > strip > >> them out myself or use > >> an > >> > automated tool (k1000) to do so." > >> > > >> > Scott and Jim, nothing prevents you from > stripping > >> those headers out > >> > yourself before you begin reading. > >> > It would then leave the material in the master > >> copy for those of us who > >> want > >> > it. > >> > > >> > In fact, I would do more touch-up work on > things > >> like headers but I don't > >> > because the first couple of lines of each page > >> seem to be the strippers > >> > domain and therefore my efforts would be > futile. > >> > > >> > The ironic thing is that we spend time on this > >> list devising and testing > >> > various stripper countermeasures and bookshare > is > >> aware of this and does > >> not > >> > discourage it. > >> > > >> > Keri Carmos saw that full well with hp6. > >> > (It's like rolling a boulder up hill) > >> > > >> > > >> > Jim: > >> > You make some interesting points. > >> > As someone has previously mentioned, if the > >> headers are too mangled, not > >> > even the stripper will strip them. > >> > > >> > The stripper is just plain erratic. It does > >> different things to the > >> same > >> > header within the same book. > >> > > >> > This is clearly a case where the benefit is not > >> worth the cost. not with > >> all > >> > this collateral damage being done. > >> > > >> > I urge you all to continue doing what your > doing. > >> (if anything try to > >> > validate a little more so we can cut down the > step > >> 1 page) > >> > > >> > I will drop this issue for now, but i am not > >> forgetting about it and I > >> trust > >> > after these last couple days, Bookshare won't > >> forget either. > >> > > >> > -- Rui > >> > a 2004 Volunteer of the year > >> > and a 2005 pain in the rear. (smile) > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx> > >> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:58 PM > >> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those > >> contrarians? > >> > > >> > > >> > > Let me speak first as a reader of Bookshare > >> books. I mostly read > >> fiction, > >> > > with the occasional pop culture book thrown > in > >> for variety. I read > >> almost > >> > > all these books in Braille. I don't want to > see > >> repeated text such as > >> page > >> > > numbers, author/title info, etc. If people > want > >> to be able to see that > >> > > info, there should be an option to include or > >> exclude this from your > >> book. > >> > > Chapters and other major headings should be > >> included of course, and I > >> > > believe that problem will be addressed. > >> > > > >> > > As a validator, I can't think of a good > enough > >> reason at this point to > >> > > stop submitting books and validating them. > That > >> includes the stripper > >> > > issue. If we stop submitting or validating > >> works, we're hurting a much > >> > > larger group of people than ourselves. The > >> ultimate purpose of Bookshare > >> > > is to give access to books. There are still > many > >> books rated fair on the > >> > > website, and in the past I'm sure there were > a > >> much higher percentage of > >> > > "fair" books submitted to the site, but we > >> wouldn't have wanted those > >> > > books held back from being available just > >> because they were poorly > >> > > scanned. I don't want people deprived of > books > >> just because of a missing > >> > > chapter heading, or because there aren't page > >> numbers included. > >> > > > >> > > Let's take things slow and easy folks. > >> > > > >> > > Scott > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx> > >> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:28 PM > >> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Where are those > >> contrarians? > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> Hello: > >> > >> > >> > >> I would like to here from people who > disagree > >> with me. > >> > >> Let me know why you think the current setup > >> makes sense. > >> > >> > >> > >> I do not mean for people to play devil's > >> advocate with this. > >> > >> I'm asking if anyone seriously disagrees > with > >> the centiments expressed > >> > >> over the last 30 hours. > >> > >> > >> > >> (There is a method to my madness) > >> > >> > >> > >> -- Rui (who is probably liked at Benetech > right > >> now as much as the > >> > >> plague) > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> From: "Deborah Kent Stein" > <dkent5817@xxxxxxx> > >> > >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:26 PM > >> > >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and > >> colatteral damage > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Dear Charlyn and Bookshare community, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I think a petition is an excellent idea. > >> Charlyn, would you like to > >> put > >> > >>> it > >> > >>> together? Rui, would you put it on the > >> Bookshare Scans site? > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I also think we should select a day to make > >> phone calls and send > >> emails > >> > >>> to > >> > >>> the Bookshare staff calling on them to turn > >> off the stripper. How > >> > >>> about > >> > >>> Thursday, July 28, one week after this most > >> recent stripper discussion > >> > >>> began. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> We need to take in the fact that, as > Bookshare > >> volunteers and users, > >> we > >> > >>> must > >> > >>> have direct say on policy issues. Right > now > >> this list is virtually > >> the > >> > >>> only > >> > >>> vehicle we have for reaching the staff, and > it > >> is clearly ineffective. > >> > >>> The > >> > >>> stripper issue highlights a need for a more > >> formalized means of > >> > >>> communication. Maybe we should develop an > >> advisory committee which > >> can > >> > >>> bring concerns to the staff and have a real > >> voice in policymaking. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> As blind people, most of us have grown up > with > >> the sense that we're > >> > >>> lucky to > >> > >>> get whatever reading matter is offered to > us. > >> We had better be > >> > >>> appreciative > >> > >>> and not complain. On the title page of > every > >> book from the National > >> > >>> Library > >> > >>> Service we read that the book has been > >> produced for the blind and > >> > >>> physically > >> > >>> handicapped "with the kind permission of > the > >> publisher." That line > >> > >>> about > >> > >>> "the kind permission" says so much! Do > >> sighted people need anyone's > >> > >>> kind > >> > >>> permission in order to read? I AM in fact > >> extraordinarily grateful to > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> volunteers and others who have spent > countless > >> hours putting books > >> into > >> > >>> Braille and recorded formats for us, and to > >> those who have worked to > >> > >>> change > >> > >>> copyright laws and make our special-format > >> books possible! Most of us > >> > >>> would > >> > >>> not be literate, educated, contributing > >> members of society without > >> their > >> > >>> help! But I think that our lifelong > >> dependence upon others to provide > >> > >>> us > >> > >>> with books, and the constant feeling that > we > >> must be grateful and that > >> > >>> we > >> > >>> can't expect too much, do take a toll. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Bookshare is different. Bookshare is a > >> program which is not only FOR > >> > >>> us, > >> > >>> but BY us. We, the volunteers, determine > what > >> books go into the > >> > >>> collection, > >> > >>> and we ourselves make them available. We > are > >> not "only volunteers" > >> who > >> > >>> have > >> > >>> no right to determine policy. We are the > >> backbone of the program - a > >> > >>> program which is created to meet our needs > and > >> those of other blind > >> and > >> > >>> print-disabled people. The Bookshare staff > >> are not users of Bookshare > >> > >>> materials. They do not live with the > >> inaccessibility of print; they > >> > >>> don't > >> > >>> experience our issues from the inside. It > is > >> absolutely essential > >> that > >> > >>> they > >> > >>> listen to what we have to say. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Bookshare is an incredible program, and I > >> believe in it utterly. It > >> has > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> potential to narrow the print gap for us as > no > >> other program ever has > >> > >>> before. But we need to take a stand and > >> insist that it be the quality > >> > >>> program we all deserve. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Debbie > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >>> From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > >>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:11 AM > >> > >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and > >> colatteral damage > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>>> Maybe we could put together a pteition of > >> some sort and put a notice > >> on > >> > >>>> the volunteer website as well to see if we > >> could get enough people to > >> > >>>> sign it to send to bookshare requesting > them > >> to stop using the > >> program. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> > >>>> > [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >> On Behalf Of Pam Quinn > >> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:02 PM > >> > >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> > >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and > >> colatteral damage > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> We take pride in our submissions and I > just > >> don't think a lot of the > >> > >>>> bookshare staff understands how angry and > >> frustrated we are when we > >> see > >> > >>>> that our submissions have been mangled. > And > >> for what? I just don't > >> get > >> > >>>> it. Why do they insist on holding on to > that > >> useless program that > >> > >>>> nobody > >> > >>>> wants? Seems to me if anything, dropping > it > >> would mean one less step > >> > >>>> and > >> > >>>> less work in putting the books on the > site. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> I use chapter headings for my breaking > points > >> in .mp3 files too, when > >> > >>>> I'm lucky enough to have them. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> It might not be our decision and they > might > >> not want to listen to us, > >> > >>>> but that would be unfortunate, because the > >> volunteers and subscribers > >> > >>>> have a major role in determining the > future > >> of bookshare. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Pam > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Original message: > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> >I have seriously considered not > submitting > >> some books I have scanned > >> > >>>> >just > >> > >>>> >because I thought they would be of little > >> use after the stripper > >> > >>>> finished > >> > >>>> >with them. I put a lot of work in to > what I > >> submit and it is really > >> > >>>> >upsetting to see the final result when my > >> original looked so nice, > >> and > >> > >>>> that > >> > >>>> >is only a volunteer's view. I also am > upset > >> by the messes that I > >> come > >> > >>>> >accross when I am reading, even for > >> pleasure. I use the chapter > >> > >>>> headings > >> > >>>> >as my MP3 creation breaking points, so if > >> they aren't there I have a > >> > >>>> big > >> > >>>> >mess! > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> >I don't really like throwing fits, and I > >> won't on this list because > >> it > >> > >>>> >seems to serve little purpose, but the > fits > >> are completely > >> justified. > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> >If i submitted a book in DAISY and BRF > >> format instead of in RTF > >> would > >> > >>>> >the > >> > >>>> >normal automated processes be skipped? > That > >> is the only thing I can > >> > >>>> think > >> > >>>> >of to rescue books where the headers, > >> headings, and page numbers are > >> > >>>> >invaluable. > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> >Sarah Van Oosterwijck > >> > >>>> >Assistive Technology Trainer > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity > >> > >>>> >----- Original Message ----- > >> > >>>> >From: "Deborah Kent Stein" > >> <dkent5817@xxxxxxx> > >> > >>>> >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > >>>> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:10 PM > >> > >>>> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper > and > >> colatteral damage > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> Hear, hear! I agree 200%! > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> We have been telling the Bookshare > staff > >> about our concerns, > >> > >>>> >> politely > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> >> but firmly, literally for years. > Despite > >> all the talk, nothing > >> has > >> > >>>> >> changed. I am beginning to think we > need > >> to take stronger action. > >> > >>>> >> We > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> >> ARE volunteers. > >> > >>>> >> We do not have to contribute the > thousands > >> of hours we put into > >> this > >> > >>>> >> program. And Bookshare cannot survive > >> without us. Do we need to > >> > >>>> >> say > >> > >>>> we > >> > >>>> >> will have to stop scanning and > validating > >> until we know that > >> someone > >> > >>>> out > >> > >>>> >> there is really listening to us, and > >> taking action? It should not > >> > >>>> have > >> > >>>> >> to > >> > >>>> >> come down to threats and strikes, but > many > >> of us are at our wit's > >> > >>>> end. > >> > >>>> >> What > >> > >>>> >> is it going to take to turn off the > >> stripper and stop mangling the > >> > >>>> books > >> > >>>> >> we > >> > >>>> >> work so hard to make available? > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> Debbie > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >>>> >> From: "Rui" <goldwave@xxxxxxx> > >> > >>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> > >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:16 AM > >> > >>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] stripper and > >> colatteral damage > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >>> Good Afternoon: > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >>> At the bookshare users meeting at NFB, > I > >> made it very clear to > >> Jim > >> > >>>> >>> (like > >> > >>>> >> he didn't know already) the issues with > >> the stripper and why i > >> think > >> > >>>> >> it should be removed. > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >>> The whole concept of the stripper > bothers > >> me, not just the fact > >> it > >> > >>>> >>> does > >> > >>>> >> more than it's supposed too. > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >>> Its very reason for being agrivates > me. > >> > >>>> >>> Regular print books have headers, some > >> have footers, that is part > >> > >>>> >>> of > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> >>> a > >> > >>>> >> print book. > >> > >>>> >>> If we want digital copies of print > books > >> then, take the good with > >> > >>>> >>> the > >> > >>>> >>> bad. > >> > >>>> >>> Do not sanitize the book to make it > more > >> access technology > >> > >>>> >>> friendly. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> >>> The > >> > >>>> >> very fact that is accessible already > does > >> that. > >> > >>>> >>> If i don't want to read the headers, i > >> can strip them out myself > >> or > >> > >>>> >>> use > >> > >>>> >>> my > >> > >>>> >> own automated tool to do so. > >> > >>>> >>> However, If by chance I do want them > >> there, I simply do not get > >> > >>>> >>> that > >> > >>>> >> option with Bookshare!!! > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >>> Words do not do justice to how much > this > >> issue ticks me off. > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >>> Bottomline, this process does not > serve > >> the community that it was > >> > >>>> >>> designed > >> > >>>> >> to assist. > >> > >>>> >>> -- Rui > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >>> > > >> > >>>> >>> > From: Mike Pietruk > <pietruk@xxxxxxxxx> > >> > >>>> >>> > Date: 2005/07/21 Thu AM 11:00:39 EDT > >> > >>>> >>> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> > >>>> >>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: > stripper > >> > >>>> >>> > > >> > >>>> >>> > Pam > >> > >>>> >>> > > >> > >>>> >>> > agreed! It's inconsistent and > >> unpredictable. And the problems > >> > >>>> >>> > relative > >> > >>>> >>> > to it have been discussed > repeatedly. > >> > >>>> >>> > The Powers-that-be are all too aware > of > >> the damage the stripper > >> > >>>> has > >> > >>>> >> caused > >> > >>>> >>> > but seem to have shoved it on the > back > >> burner probably due to > >> > >>>> >>> > more > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> >>> > pressing issues to deal with. It is > a > >> shame that it cannot be > >> > >>>> >>> > dealt with; but Marissa, prior to > her > >> leaving, pretty much > >> > >>>> >>> > outlined where it stands. So I > wouldn't > >> expect much change > >> > >>>> >>> > regarding the stripper as any change > >> would require some sort of > >> > >>>> >>> > policy change plus programmer > action. > >> Conceptually, the > >> stripper > >> > >>>> >>> > makes sense; practically, it has > been a > >> > >>>> >> dismal > >> > >>>> >>> > failure breading as much (or perhaps > >> even more) than it has > >> > >>>> >>> > repaired. It's not our decision as > we > >> are volunteers, not > >> > >>>> >>> > decision-makers. > >> > >>>> >>> > > >> > >>>> >>> > > >> > >>>> >>> > > >> > >>>> >>> > > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >>> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> -- > >> > >>>> >> No virus found in this incoming > message. > >> > >>>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> > >>>> >> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: > >> 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: > >> > >>>> 7/19/2005 > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> >> > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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