[bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?

I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine why not.
Even those who do the minimum, it doesn't take very
long. If worse came to worse, and they didn't, the
headers, *and* the page numbers and the chapter titles
would still be there -- better, I should think, than
having the page numbers and chapter titles missing.
(smile)

Cindy


--- Sharon Jackson <dolly1025@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> But would all validators be willing to do this?
> 
> Sharon 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:08 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those
> contrarians?
> 
> 
> > Kenneth,
> > 
> > I'm not sure if my answer to Jim got posted, but
> ...
> > 
> > I'm not sure if it would work, but  my idea is
> that
> > the stripper be eliminated, since it seems to
> strip
> > pages along with the header, even though it isn't
> > supposed to, from what we've been told.  The
> > validators' job would include eliminating the
> headers
> > by hand, or , where it's possible, by a global
> replace
> > with nothing (I've done that many times and it
> works
> > well) but leaving in page numbers of putting them
> in
> > if they aren't there. That would solve the problem
> Jim
> > mentioned of some people who listen to books 
> and/or
> > don't have machines that can eliminated headers
> for
> > themselves. Whether a validator does the minimum
> of
> > checking copyrights and being sure that all the
> pages
> > are there, eliminating headers wouldn't take that
> much
> > more time, and those of us who read and correct as
> we
> > go along probably do it already. It really isn't a
> big
> > deal for a validator--and certaiinly the small
> amount
> > of work and time that's involved is worth it to
> ensure
> > that the Bookshare member and reader has page
> numbers
> > but not headers. I don't see what function headers
> > have. I wish a publisher of editor could tell us.
> I
> > wonder if it isn't just a left-over tradition from
> > when books were first published and monks and
> scribes
> > decorated books. I'll have to do some research.
> > 
> > Cindy
> > 
> > -- "Kenneth A. Cross" <crossk@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > 
> >> I just can't help repeating the point that
> stripping
> >> page numbers
> >> invalidates the book for any serious researcher
> or
> >> teacher or leader of a
> >> discussion among blind and sighted users.  What
> we
> >> end up with is a service
> >> only for the casual reader. That does not mean we
> >> don't have a positive
> >> resource, but it does limit its use, particularly
> in
> >> areas where employment
> >> could result from a more controlled treatment.
> >> 
> >> I personally have submitted a large number of
> >> materials which could be used
> >> in research.  They can't be, because one would
> have
> >> to procure a print book
> >> and a sighted helper to use them.  To me, that is
> a
> >> great concern,
> >> particularly because I, too, would like to use
> some
> >> of the materials on the
> >> system and have the ability to refer to specific
> >> pages in discussions and
> >> teaching.
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:49 AM
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those
> >> contrarians?
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > Hi Scott:
> >> > As I stated before:
> >> >
> >> > "Regular print books have headers, some have
> >> footers, that is part of a
> >> > print book.
> >> > If we want digital copies of print books then,
> >> take the good with the
> >> bad."
> >> >
> >> > If I don't want to read the headers, I can
> strip
> >> them out myself or use
> >> an
> >> > automated tool (k1000) to do so."
> >> >
> >> > Scott and Jim, nothing prevents you from
> stripping
> >> those headers out
> >> > yourself before you begin reading.
> >> > It would then leave the material in the master
> >> copy for those of us who
> >> want
> >> > it.
> >> >
> >> > In fact, I would do more touch-up work on
> things
> >> like headers but I don't
> >> > because the first couple of lines of each page
> >> seem to be the strippers
> >> > domain and therefore my efforts would be
> futile.
> >> >
> >> > The ironic thing is that we spend time on this
> >> list devising and testing
> >> > various stripper countermeasures and bookshare
> is
> >> aware of this and does
> >> not
> >> > discourage it.
> >> >
> >> > Keri Carmos saw that full well with hp6.
> >> > (It's like rolling a boulder up hill)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Jim:
> >> > You make some interesting points.
> >> >   As someone has previously mentioned, if the
> >> headers are too mangled, not
> >> > even the stripper will strip them.
> >> >
> >> >   The stripper is just plain erratic.  It does
> >> different things to the
> >> same
> >> > header within the same book.
> >> >
> >> > This is clearly a case where the benefit is not
> >> worth the cost. not with
> >> all
> >> > this collateral damage being done.
> >> >
> >> > I urge you all to continue doing what your
> doing.
> >> (if anything try to
> >> > validate a little more so we can cut down the
> step
> >> 1 page)
> >> >
> >> > I will drop this issue for now, but i am not
> >> forgetting about it and I
> >> trust
> >> > after these last couple days, Bookshare won't
> >> forget either.
> >> >
> >> > -- Rui
> >> > a 2004 Volunteer of the year
> >> > and a 2005 pain in the rear. (smile)
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:58 PM
> >> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those
> >> contrarians?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Let me speak first as a reader of Bookshare
> >> books. I mostly read
> >> fiction,
> >> > > with the occasional pop culture book thrown
> in
> >> for variety. I read
> >> almost
> >> > > all these books in Braille. I don't want to
> see
> >> repeated text such as
> >> page
> >> > > numbers, author/title info, etc. If people
> want
> >> to be able to see that
> >> > > info, there should be an option to include or
> >> exclude this from your
> >> book.
> >> > > Chapters and other major headings should be
> >> included of course, and I
> >> > > believe that problem will be addressed.
> >> > >
> >> > > As a validator, I can't think of a good
> enough
> >> reason at this point to
> >> > > stop submitting books and validating them.
> That
> >> includes the stripper
> >> > > issue. If we stop submitting or validating
> >> works, we're hurting a much
> >> > > larger group of people than ourselves. The
> >> ultimate purpose of Bookshare
> >> > > is to give access to books. There are still
> many
> >> books rated fair on the
> >> > > website, and in the past I'm sure there were
> a
> >> much higher percentage of
> >> > > "fair" books submitted to the site, but we
> >> wouldn't have wanted those
> >> > > books held back from being available just
> >> because they were poorly
> >> > > scanned. I don't want people deprived of
> books
> >> just because of a missing
> >> > > chapter heading, or because there aren't page
> >> numbers included.
> >> > >
> >> > > Let's take things slow and easy folks.
> >> > >
> >> > > Scott
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > > From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
> >> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:28 PM
> >> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Where are those
> >> contrarians?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >> Hello:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I would like to here from people who
> disagree
> >> with me.
> >> > >> Let me know why you think the current setup
> >> makes sense.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I do not mean for people to play devil's
> >> advocate with this.
> >> > >> I'm asking if anyone seriously disagrees
> with
> >> the centiments expressed
> >> > >> over the last 30 hours.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> (There is a method to my madness)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> -- Rui (who is probably liked at Benetech
> right
> >> now as much as the
> >> > >> plague)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > >> From: "Deborah Kent Stein"
> <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
> >> > >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:26 PM
> >> > >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
> >> colatteral damage
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Dear Charlyn and Bookshare community,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I think a petition is an excellent idea. 
> >> Charlyn, would you like to
> >> put
> >> > >>> it
> >> > >>> together?  Rui, would you put it on the
> >> Bookshare Scans site?
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I also think we should select a day to make
> >> phone calls and send
> >> emails
> >> > >>> to
> >> > >>> the Bookshare staff calling on them to turn
> >> off the stripper.   How
> >> > >>> about
> >> > >>> Thursday, July 28, one week after this most
> >> recent stripper discussion
> >> > >>> began.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> We need to take in the fact that, as
> Bookshare
> >> volunteers and users,
> >> we
> >> > >>> must
> >> > >>> have direct say on policy issues.  Right
> now
> >> this list is virtually
> >> the
> >> > >>> only
> >> > >>> vehicle we have for reaching the staff, and
> it
> >> is clearly ineffective.
> >> > >>> The
> >> > >>> stripper issue highlights a need for a more
> >> formalized means of
> >> > >>> communication.  Maybe we should develop an
> >> advisory committee which
> >> can
> >> > >>> bring concerns to the staff and have a real
> >> voice in policymaking.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> As blind people, most of us have grown up
> with
> >> the sense that we're
> >> > >>> lucky to
> >> > >>> get whatever reading matter is offered to
> us. 
> >> We had better be
> >> > >>> appreciative
> >> > >>> and not complain.  On the title page of
> every
> >> book from the National
> >> > >>> Library
> >> > >>> Service we read that the book has been
> >> produced for the blind and
> >> > >>> physically
> >> > >>> handicapped "with the kind permission of
> the
> >> publisher."  That line
> >> > >>> about
> >> > >>> "the kind permission" says so much!  Do
> >> sighted people need anyone's
> >> > >>> kind
> >> > >>> permission in order to read?  I AM in fact
> >> extraordinarily grateful to
> >> > >>> the
> >> > >>> volunteers and others who have spent
> countless
> >> hours putting books
> >> into
> >> > >>> Braille and recorded formats for us, and to
> >> those who have worked to
> >> > >>> change
> >> > >>> copyright laws and make our special-format
> >> books possible!  Most of us
> >> > >>> would
> >> > >>> not be literate, educated, contributing
> >> members of society without
> >> their
> >> > >>> help!  But I think that our lifelong
> >> dependence upon others to provide
> >> > >>> us
> >> > >>> with books, and the constant feeling that
> we
> >> must be grateful and that
> >> > >>> we
> >> > >>> can't expect too much, do take a toll.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Bookshare is different.  Bookshare is a
> >> program which is not only FOR
> >> > >>> us,
> >> > >>> but BY us.  We, the volunteers, determine
> what
> >> books go into the
> >> > >>> collection,
> >> > >>> and we ourselves make them available.  We
> are
> >> not "only volunteers"
> >> who
> >> > >>> have
> >> > >>> no right to determine policy.  We are the
> >> backbone of the program - a
> >> > >>> program which is created to meet our needs
> and
> >> those of other blind
> >> and
> >> > >>> print-disabled people.  The Bookshare staff
> >> are not users of Bookshare
> >> > >>> materials.  They do not live with the
> >> inaccessibility of print; they
> >> > >>> don't
> >> > >>> experience our issues from the inside.  It
> is
> >> absolutely essential
> >> that
> >> > >>> they
> >> > >>> listen to what we have to say.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Bookshare is an incredible program, and I
> >> believe in it utterly.  It
> >> has
> >> > >>> the
> >> > >>> potential to narrow the print gap for us as
> no
> >> other program ever has
> >> > >>> before.  But we need to take a stand and
> >> insist that it be the quality
> >> > >>> program we all deserve.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Debbie
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > >>> From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > >>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:11 AM
> >> > >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
> >> colatteral damage
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>> Maybe we could put together a pteition of
> >> some sort and put a notice
> >> on
> >> > >>>> the volunteer website as well to see if we
> >> could get enough people to
> >> > >>>> sign it to send to bookshare requesting
> them
> >> to stop using the
> >> program.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > >>>>
> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >> On Behalf Of Pam Quinn
> >> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:02 PM
> >> > >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and
> >> colatteral damage
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> We take pride in our submissions and I
> just
> >> don't think a lot of the
> >> > >>>> bookshare staff understands how angry and
> >> frustrated we are when we
> >> see
> >> > >>>> that our submissions have been mangled.
> And
> >> for what? I just don't
> >> get
> >> > >>>> it. Why do they insist on holding on to
> that
> >> useless program that
> >> > >>>> nobody
> >> > >>>> wants? Seems to me if anything, dropping
> it
> >> would mean one less step
> >> > >>>> and
> >> > >>>> less work in putting the books on the
> site.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> I use chapter headings for my breaking
> points
> >> in .mp3 files too, when
> >> > >>>> I'm lucky enough to have them.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> It might not be our decision and they
> might
> >> not want to listen to us,
> >> > >>>> but that would be unfortunate, because the
> >> volunteers and subscribers
> >> > >>>> have a major role in determining the
> future
> >> of bookshare.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Pam
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Original message:
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> >I have seriously considered not
> submitting
> >> some books I have scanned
> >> > >>>> >just
> >> > >>>> >because I thought they would be of little
> >> use after the stripper
> >> > >>>> finished
> >> > >>>> >with them.  I put a lot of work in to
> what I
> >> submit and it is really
> >> > >>>> >upsetting to see the final result when my
> >> original looked so nice,
> >> and
> >> > >>>> that
> >> > >>>> >is only a volunteer's view.  I also am
> upset
> >> by the messes that I
> >> come
> >> > >>>> >accross when I am reading, even for
> >> pleasure.  I use the chapter
> >> > >>>> headings
> >> > >>>> >as my MP3 creation breaking points, so if
> >> they aren't there I have a
> >> > >>>> big
> >> > >>>> >mess!
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >I don't really like throwing fits, and I
> >> won't on this list because
> >> it
> >> > >>>> >seems to serve little purpose, but the
> fits
> >> are completely
> >> justified.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >If i submitted a book in DAISY and BRF
> >> format instead of in RTF
> >> would
> >> > >>>> >the
> >> > >>>> >normal automated processes be skipped? 
> That
> >> is the only thing I can
> >> > >>>> think
> >> > >>>> >of to rescue books where the headers,
> >> headings, and page numbers are
> >> > >>>> >invaluable.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >Sarah Van Oosterwijck
> >> > >>>> >Assistive Technology Trainer
> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
> >> > >>>> >----- Original Message -----
> >> > >>>> >From: "Deborah Kent Stein"
> >> <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
> >> > >>>> >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > >>>> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:10 PM
> >> > >>>> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper
> and
> >> colatteral damage
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >> Hear, hear!  I agree 200%!
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >> We have been telling the Bookshare
> staff
> >> about our concerns,
> >> > >>>> >> politely
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> >> but firmly, literally for years. 
> Despite
> >> all the talk, nothing
> >> has
> >> > >>>> >> changed. I am beginning to think we
> need
> >> to take stronger action.
> >> > >>>> >> We
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> >> ARE volunteers.
> >> > >>>> >> We do not have to contribute the
> thousands
> >> of hours we put into
> >> this
> >> > >>>> >> program.  And Bookshare cannot survive
> >> without us.  Do we need to
> >> > >>>> >> say
> >> > >>>> we
> >> > >>>> >> will have to stop scanning and
> validating
> >> until we know that
> >> someone
> >> > >>>> out
> >> > >>>> >> there is really listening to us, and
> >> taking action?  It should not
> >> > >>>> have
> >> > >>>> >> to
> >> > >>>> >> come down to threats and strikes, but
> many
> >> of us are at our wit's
> >> > >>>> end.
> >> > >>>> >> What
> >> > >>>> >> is it going to take to turn off the
> >> stripper and stop mangling the
> >> > >>>> books
> >> > >>>> >> we
> >> > >>>> >> work so hard to make available?
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >> Debbie
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > >>>> >> From: "Rui" <goldwave@xxxxxxx>
> >> > >>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:16 AM
> >> > >>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] stripper and
> >> colatteral damage
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>> Good Afternoon:
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>> At the bookshare users meeting at NFB,
> I
> >> made it very clear to
> >> Jim
> >> > >>>> >>> (like
> >> > >>>> >> he didn't know already) the issues with
> >> the stripper and why i
> >> think
> >> > >>>> >> it should be removed.
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>> The whole concept of the stripper
> bothers
> >> me, not just the fact
> >> it
> >> > >>>> >>> does
> >> > >>>> >> more than it's supposed too.
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>> Its very reason for being agrivates
> me.
> >> > >>>> >>> Regular print books have headers, some
> >> have footers, that is part
> >> > >>>> >>> of
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> >>> a
> >> > >>>> >> print book.
> >> > >>>> >>> If we want digital copies of print
> books
> >> then, take the good with
> >> > >>>> >>> the
> >> > >>>> >>> bad.
> >> > >>>> >>> Do not sanitize the book to make it
> more
> >> access technology
> >> > >>>> >>> friendly.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> >>> The
> >> > >>>> >> very fact that is accessible already
> does
> >> that.
> >> > >>>> >>> If i don't want to read the headers, i
> >> can strip them out myself
> >> or
> >> > >>>> >>> use
> >> > >>>> >>> my
> >> > >>>> >> own automated tool to do so.
> >> > >>>> >>> However,  If by chance I do want them
> >> there, I simply do not get
> >> > >>>> >>> that
> >> > >>>> >> option with Bookshare!!!
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>> Words do not do justice to how much
> this
> >> issue ticks me off.
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>> Bottomline, this process does not
> serve
> >> the community that it was
> >> > >>>> >>> designed
> >> > >>>> >> to assist.
> >> > >>>> >>> -- Rui
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>> >
> >> > >>>> >>> > From: Mike Pietruk
> <pietruk@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> > >>>> >>> > Date: 2005/07/21 Thu AM 11:00:39 EDT
> >> > >>>> >>> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > >>>> >>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re:
> stripper
> >> > >>>> >>> >
> >> > >>>> >>> > Pam
> >> > >>>> >>> >
> >> > >>>> >>> > agreed!  It's inconsistent and
> >> unpredictable.  And the problems
> >> > >>>> >>> > relative
> >> > >>>> >>> > to it have been discussed
> repeatedly.
> >> > >>>> >>> > The Powers-that-be are all too aware
> of
> >> the damage the stripper
> >> > >>>> has
> >> > >>>> >> caused
> >> > >>>> >>> > but seem to have shoved it on the
> back
> >> burner probably due to
> >> > >>>> >>> > more
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> >>> > pressing issues to deal with. It is
> a
> >> shame that it cannot be
> >> > >>>> >>> > dealt with; but Marissa, prior to
> her
> >> leaving, pretty much
> >> > >>>> >>> > outlined where it stands. So I
> wouldn't
> >> expect much change
> >> > >>>> >>> > regarding the stripper as any change
> >> would require some sort of
> >> > >>>> >>> > policy change plus programmer
> action.
> >> Conceptually, the
> >> stripper
> >> > >>>> >>> > makes sense; practically, it has
> been a
> >> > >>>> >> dismal
> >> > >>>> >>> > failure breading as much (or perhaps
> >> even more) than it has
> >> > >>>> >>> > repaired. It's not our decision as
> we
> >> are volunteers, not
> >> > >>>> >>> > decision-makers.
> >> > >>>> >>> >
> >> > >>>> >>> >
> >> > >>>> >>> >
> >> > >>>> >>> >
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >> --
> >> > >>>> >> No virus found in this incoming
> message.
> >> > >>>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> >> > >>>> >> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database:
> >> 267.9.2/52 - Release Date:
> >> > >>>> 7/19/2005
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >>
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > 
> >
> 
> 


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