This talk about the stripper and having page numbers and headers/footers has
reminded me that Bookshare is not the only one with this problem. There are
journals who give print page numbers for articles, but not the page numbers
in the electronic version so we, who depend on the electronic version, must
still receive assistance from someone who can read the printed journal.
Sharon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth A. Cross" <crossk@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 3:41 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
I just can't help repeating the point that stripping page numbers
invalidates the book for any serious researcher or teacher or leader of a
discussion among blind and sighted users. What we end up with is a service
only for the casual reader. That does not mean we don't have a positive
resource, but it does limit its use, particularly in areas where employment
could result from a more controlled treatment.
I personally have submitted a large number of materials which could be used
in research. They can't be, because one would have to procure a print book
and a sighted helper to use them. To me, that is a great concern,
particularly because I, too, would like to use some of the materials on the
system and have the ability to refer to specific pages in discussions and
teaching.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:49 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
bad."Hi Scott: As I stated before:
"Regular print books have headers, some have footers, that is part of a print book. If we want digital copies of print books then, take the good with thean
If I don't want to read the headers, I can strip them out myself or usewantautomated tool (k1000) to do so."
Scott and Jim, nothing prevents you from stripping those headers out yourself before you begin reading. It would then leave the material in the master copy for those of us whonotit.
In fact, I would do more touch-up work on things like headers but I don't because the first couple of lines of each page seem to be the strippers domain and therefore my efforts would be futile.
The ironic thing is that we spend time on this list devising and testing various stripper countermeasures and bookshare is aware of this and doessamediscourage it.
Keri Carmos saw that full well with hp6. (It's like rolling a boulder up hill)
Jim:
You make some interesting points.
As someone has previously mentioned, if the headers are too mangled, not
even the stripper will strip them.
The stripper is just plain erratic. It does different things to theallheader within the same book.
This is clearly a case where the benefit is not worth the cost. not withtrustthis collateral damage being done.
I urge you all to continue doing what your doing. (if anything try to validate a little more so we can cut down the step 1 page)
I will drop this issue for now, but i am not forgetting about it and Ifiction,after these last couple days, Bookshare won't forget either.
-- Rui a 2004 Volunteer of the year and a 2005 pain in the rear. (smile)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:58 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Where are those contrarians?
> Let me speak first as a reader of Bookshare books. I mostly read> with the occasional pop culture book thrown in for variety. I readalmost> all these books in Braille. I don't want to see repeated text such aspagebook.> numbers, author/title info, etc. If people want to be able to see that > info, there should be an option to include or exclude this from your> Chapters and other major headings should be included of course, and Iput
> believe that problem will be addressed.
>
> As a validator, I can't think of a good enough reason at this point to
> stop submitting books and validating them. That includes the stripper
> issue. If we stop submitting or validating works, we're hurting a much
> larger group of people than ourselves. The ultimate purpose of > Bookshare
> is to give access to books. There are still many books rated fair on > the
> website, and in the past I'm sure there were a much higher percentage > of
> "fair" books submitted to the site, but we wouldn't have wanted those
> books held back from being available just because they were poorly
> scanned. I don't want people deprived of books just because of a > missing
> chapter heading, or because there aren't page numbers included.
>
> Let's take things slow and easy folks.
>
> Scott
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rui" <goldWave@xxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:28 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Where are those contrarians?
>
>
>> Hello:
>>
>> I would like to here from people who disagree with me.
>> Let me know why you think the current setup makes sense.
>>
>> I do not mean for people to play devil's advocate with this.
>> I'm asking if anyone seriously disagrees with the centiments expressed
>> over the last 30 hours.
>>
>> (There is a method to my madness)
>>
>> -- Rui (who is probably liked at Benetech right now as much as the
>> plague)
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Deborah Kent Stein" <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:26 PM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Dear Charlyn and Bookshare community,
>>>
>>> I think a petition is an excellent idea. Charlyn, would you like toemails>>> it >>> together? Rui, would you put it on the Bookshare Scans site? >>> >>> I also think we should select a day to make phone calls and send>>> towe
>>> the Bookshare staff calling on them to turn off the stripper. How
>>> about
>>> Thursday, July 28, one week after this most recent stripper >>> discussion
>>> began.
>>>
>>> We need to take in the fact that, as Bookshare volunteers and users,the>>> must >>> have direct say on policy issues. Right now this list is virtually>>> onlycan
>>> vehicle we have for reaching the staff, and it is clearly >>> ineffective.
>>> The
>>> stripper issue highlights a need for a more formalized means of
>>> communication. Maybe we should develop an advisory committee which>>> bring concerns to the staff and have a real voice in policymaking.into
>>>
>>> As blind people, most of us have grown up with the sense that we're
>>> lucky to
>>> get whatever reading matter is offered to us. We had better be
>>> appreciative
>>> and not complain. On the title page of every book from the National
>>> Library
>>> Service we read that the book has been produced for the blind and
>>> physically
>>> handicapped "with the kind permission of the publisher." That line
>>> about
>>> "the kind permission" says so much! Do sighted people need anyone's
>>> kind
>>> permission in order to read? I AM in fact extraordinarily grateful >>> to
>>> the
>>> volunteers and others who have spent countless hours putting books>>> Braille and recorded formats for us, and to those who have worked totheir
>>> change
>>> copyright laws and make our special-format books possible! Most of >>> us
>>> would
>>> not be literate, educated, contributing members of society without>>> help! But I think that our lifelong dependence upon others to >>> providewho
>>> us
>>> with books, and the constant feeling that we must be grateful and >>> that
>>> we
>>> can't expect too much, do take a toll.
>>>
>>> Bookshare is different. Bookshare is a program which is not only FOR
>>> us,
>>> but BY us. We, the volunteers, determine what books go into the
>>> collection,
>>> and we ourselves make them available. We are not "only volunteers"and>>> have >>> no right to determine policy. We are the backbone of the program - a >>> program which is created to meet our needs and those of other blind>>> print-disabled people. The Bookshare staff are not users of >>> Booksharethat
>>> materials. They do not live with the inaccessibility of print; they
>>> don't
>>> experience our issues from the inside. It is absolutely essentialhas>>> they >>> listen to what we have to say. >>> >>> Bookshare is an incredible program, and I believe in it utterly. It>>> theon
>>> potential to narrow the print gap for us as no other program ever has
>>> before. But we need to take a stand and insist that it be the >>> quality
>>> program we all deserve.
>>>
>>> Debbie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Charlene" <caota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:11 AM
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>
>>>
>>>> Maybe we could put together a pteition of some sort and put a notice>>>> the volunteer website as well to see if we could get enough people >>>> toprogram.
>>>> sign it to send to bookshare requesting them to stop using thesee>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pam Quinn >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:02 PM >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage >>>> >>>> >>>> We take pride in our submissions and I just don't think a lot of the >>>> bookshare staff understands how angry and frustrated we are when we>>>> that our submissions have been mangled. And for what? I just don'tget>>>> it. Why do they insist on holding on to that useless program thatand
>>>> nobody
>>>> wants? Seems to me if anything, dropping it would mean one less step
>>>> and
>>>> less work in putting the books on the site.
>>>>
>>>> I use chapter headings for my breaking points in .mp3 files too, >>>> when
>>>> I'm lucky enough to have them.
>>>>
>>>> It might not be our decision and they might not want to listen to >>>> us,
>>>> but that would be unfortunate, because the volunteers and >>>> subscribers
>>>> have a major role in determining the future of bookshare.
>>>>
>>>> Pam
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >I have seriously considered not submitting some books I have >>>> >scanned
>>>> >just
>>>> >because I thought they would be of little use after the stripper
>>>> finished
>>>> >with them. I put a lot of work in to what I submit and it is >>>> >really
>>>> >upsetting to see the final result when my original looked so nice,come>>>> that >>>> >is only a volunteer's view. I also am upset by the messes that I>>>> >accross when I am reading, even for pleasure. I use the chapterit
>>>> headings
>>>> >as my MP3 creation breaking points, so if they aren't there I have >>>> >a
>>>> big
>>>> >mess!
>>>> >
>>>> >I don't really like throwing fits, and I won't on this list because>>>> >seems to serve little purpose, but the fits are completelyjustified.would>>>> > >>>> >If i submitted a book in DAISY and BRF format instead of in RTF>>>> >thehas
>>>> >normal automated processes be skipped? That is the only thing I >>>> >can
>>>> think
>>>> >of to rescue books where the headers, headings, and page numbers >>>> >are
>>>> >invaluable.
>>>> >
>>>> >Sarah Van Oosterwijck
>>>> >Assistive Technology Trainer http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
>>>> >----- Original Message -----
>>>> >From: "Deborah Kent Stein" <dkent5817@xxxxxxx>
>>>> >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:10 PM
>>>> >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper and colatteral damage
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hear, hear! I agree 200%!
>>>> >>
>>>> >> We have been telling the Bookshare staff about our concerns,
>>>> >> politely
>>>>
>>>> >> but firmly, literally for years. Despite all the talk, nothingthis>>>> >> changed. I am beginning to think we need to take stronger action. >>>> >> We >>>> >>>> >> ARE volunteers. >>>> >> We do not have to contribute the thousands of hours we put intosomeone>>>> >> program. And Bookshare cannot survive without us. Do we need to >>>> >> say >>>> we >>>> >> will have to stop scanning and validating until we know that>>>> outJim
>>>> >> there is really listening to us, and taking action? It should >>>> >> not
>>>> have
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> come down to threats and strikes, but many of us are at our wit's
>>>> end.
>>>> >> What
>>>> >> is it going to take to turn off the stripper and stop mangling >>>> >> the
>>>> books
>>>> >> we
>>>> >> work so hard to make available?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Debbie
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: "Rui" <goldwave@xxxxxxx>
>>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:16 AM
>>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] stripper and colatteral damage
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Good Afternoon:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> At the bookshare users meeting at NFB, I made it very clear tothink>>>> >>> (like >>>> >> he didn't know already) the issues with the stripper and why iit>>>> >> it should be removed. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The whole concept of the stripper bothers me, not just the fact>>>> >>> doesor
>>>> >> more than it's supposed too.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Its very reason for being agrivates me.
>>>> >>> Regular print books have headers, some have footers, that is >>>> >>> part
>>>> >>> of
>>>>
>>>> >>> a
>>>> >> print book.
>>>> >>> If we want digital copies of print books then, take the good >>>> >>> with
>>>> >>> the
>>>> >>> bad.
>>>> >>> Do not sanitize the book to make it more access technology
>>>> >>> friendly.
>>>>
>>>> >>> The
>>>> >> very fact that is accessible already does that.
>>>> >>> If i don't want to read the headers, i can strip them out myself>>>> >>> usestripper
>>>> >>> my
>>>> >> own automated tool to do so.
>>>> >>> However, If by chance I do want them there, I simply do not get
>>>> >>> that
>>>> >> option with Bookshare!!!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Words do not do justice to how much this issue ticks me off.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Bottomline, this process does not serve the community that it >>>> >>> was
>>>> >>> designed
>>>> >> to assist.
>>>> >>> -- Rui
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > From: Mike Pietruk <pietruk@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> >>> > Date: 2005/07/21 Thu AM 11:00:39 EDT
>>>> >>> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> >>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: stripper
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Pam
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > agreed! It's inconsistent and unpredictable. And the >>>> >>> > problems
>>>> >>> > relative
>>>> >>> > to it have been discussed repeatedly.
>>>> >>> > The Powers-that-be are all too aware of the damage the >>>> >>> > stripper
>>>> has
>>>> >> caused
>>>> >>> > but seem to have shoved it on the back burner probably due to
>>>> >>> > more
>>>>
>>>> >>> > pressing issues to deal with. It is a shame that it cannot be
>>>> >>> > dealt with; but Marissa, prior to her leaving, pretty much
>>>> >>> > outlined where it stands. So I wouldn't expect much change
>>>> >>> > regarding the stripper as any change would require some sort >>>> >>> > of
>>>> >>> > policy change plus programmer action. Conceptually, the>>>> >>> > makes sense; practically, it has been a >>>> >> dismal >>>> >>> > failure breading as much (or perhaps even more) than it has >>>> >>> > repaired. It's not our decision as we are volunteers, not >>>> >>> > decision-makers. >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>>> >> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: >>>> 7/19/2005 >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >
