Hi Robert! As you know, screen readers have many settings for punctuation, so people can choose whether or not to hear the ellipsis or any other punctuation marks. That's why I think the ellipsis approach in a table of contents works well for all three types of readers, print, Braille, and auditory. *smile* Blessings. Lynnsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert tweedy" <roberttweedy@xxxxxxx> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:33 AM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents I have jaws set to ignore periods but the question would be how does it sound in a daisy device or with open book or kurzweil? What ever the decision is I will go with. How about spaces between the names of chapters and page numbers or would that be confusing to a blind person reading with speech? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori" <lori@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:03 AM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents > Then if we are using replace tabs then we do that first and then go back > and put in the dots by hand? > > Lori M > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lori Castner" <loralee.castner@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:42 AM > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents > > >> If this group is making a decision or referring a suggestion to the VAT, >> then I agree with three dots. >> >> Lori C. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Lynn I" <lynnskyi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 6:05 AM >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents >> >> >>> My vote is that we use three dots. >>> >>> Chapter 1 ... 1 >>> >>> It's simple, short, and easy to insert. *smile* >>> >>> Blessings. >>> >>> Lynnsky >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "EVAN REESE" <mentat3@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 12:32 AM >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents >>> >>> >>> From a braille reader's perspective, this doesn't look good, especially >>> because people use braille displays of different lengths. >>> Some will have to scroll down one line, or maybe even two, just to get >>> past >>> all those dots. I counted 34 in the first item alone, and 28 in the >>> second >>> item. That seems like it would be a bit of a pain for braille readers. >>> >>> I think three dots is plenty. >>> >>> Evan >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Debby Franson" <the.bee@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 1:03 AM >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents >>> >>> >>>> Hi everyone! >>>> >>>> Here is a table of contents with the dot leaders as I found it. I >>>> didn't >>>> insert anything. >>>> >>>> How does it look for you sighted readers? >>>> >>>> How does it come out on a braille display? >>>> >>>> How does it sound to those who use screen readers? >>>> >>>> Window-Eyes, at least the way I have it set totally ignores these dot >>>> leaders. If I add periods like this on a line: >>>> >>>> ...... >>>> Window-Eyes also ignores them. >>>> >>>> Here's the table of contents. >>>> >>>> Contents >>>> >>>> Foreword .................................. 9 >>>> 1 Intercession >>>> A Way of Life ............................ 13 >>>> 2 Compassion in Action >>>> The Functions of Intercession ............... 26 >>>> 3 Intensity in Vision >>>> The Priorities of Intercession ................ 44 >>>> 4 Ordered Warfare >>>> Establishing Battle Strategies for >>>> Intercession .............................. 60 >>>> 5 Authoritative Intercession >>>> Keys to "Fasting" Down Strongholds ........ 76 >>>> 6 Praying for the Lost >>>> (A Week of Intercession) >>>> Monday: Six Interrogatives of Intercession .... 89 >>>> >>>> >>>> 8 >>>> >>>> 7 Praying for Authorities >>>> Tuesday: Invading Areas of Influence ........ 96 >>>> 8 Praying for Nations >>>> Wednesday: Confronting Enemy >>>> Strongholds ............................. 105 >>>> 9 Praying for Laborers >>>> Thursday: Co-Workers in the Conflict ....... 114 >>>> 10 Praying for the Church >>>> Friday: Contending for Spiritual >>>> Awakening ............................. 12 >>>> 11 Praying for the Sick and Afflicted >>>> Saturday: Biblical Factors for Physical >>>> Restoration ............................. 131 >>>> 12 Praying for the Family >>>> Sunday: Prayer Patterns for Healthy >>>> Homes ................................. 143 >>>> 13 Soul Conflict >>>> Taking Authority Against Spiritual >>>> Darkness ............................... 156 >>>> 14 Prayer Travelers >>>> Mobilizing a Movement of World Prayer Missionaries >>>> ............................ 175 >>>> >>>> Debby >>>> >>>> At 04:26 PM 11/4/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote >>>>>Hi Judy and Valerie, >>>>> >>>>> Inserting an elipsis between items in a table of contents and >>>>> their >>>>>respective page numbers will work. Any more dots than that would be a >>>>>potential nightmare for those reading with speech. Because in the dot >>>>>leader format the screen readers might well read "dot dot dot dot dot" >>>>>etc >>>>>depending upon the amount of punctuation each user has spoken. So, if >>>>>an >>>>>elipsis would work for sighted readers better than just a space, I'm >>>>>happy >>>>>to begin inserting an elipsis instead. >>>>> >>>>>Thanks, Valerie, for telling us how we can make things at least a >>>>>little >>>>>more usable for some folks. >>>>> >>>>>Mayrie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judy s. >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:42 PM >>>>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents >>>>> >>>>>I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to figure out tables of contents >>>>>visually with just the single space. I'm perfectly happy with an >>>>>ellipsis >>>>>instead of the space, as an idea. I can't see any way that trying to >>>>>figuour out how many periods to put in to make the right margin on each >>>>>line, as is done with a printed book, will make sense or be anything >>>>>but a >>>>>nightmare to do if you're blind. Having an ellipsis in makes it >>>>>perfectly >>>>>readable for me visually. >>>>> >>>>>Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some major dental surgery today >>>>>and >>>>>we >>>>>had to use enough anesthesia to bring an elephant down. So I'm a bit >>>>>loopy! >>>>>grin. >>>>> >>>>>Judy s. >>>>> >>>>>Valerie Maples wrote: >>>>> > Ideally you should have enough periods so the right margin is even >>>>> > for >>>>> > visual scanning of page numbers as a list, but an ellipsis would be >>>>> > better than a single space. that is outright torture to find >>>>> > anything. >>>>> > >>>>> > Valerie >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> Hi Debby, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I'd like more commentary from our sighted print disabled readers to >>>>> >> know whether this will be helpful before I change my practises. >>>>> >> I'm >>>>> >> happy to change, as you are, but not willing to make a permanent >>>>> >> change until or unless it is commented upon by more than one >>>>> >> person. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who is print disabled, but >>>>> >> sighted >>>>> >> want to comment on this? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Mayrie >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Debby >>>>> >> Franson >>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:58 AM >>>>> >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Hi Mayrie! >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Should I insert elipses in the table of contents in "Rebel With a >>>>> >> Cause"? >>>>> >> It wouldn't be a bother. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Debby >>>>> >> >>>>> >> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote >>>>> >>> Hi Melissa, >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> That's a great idea! Let's see if it would work for folks like >>>>> >>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie was the one requesting a change. >>>>> >>> If it would work, I don't see how it would go against anything >>>>> >>> bookshare has >>>>> >> ever said. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Mayrie >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Melissa >>>>> >>> Smith >>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:07 AM >>>>> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table Of Contents >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I've been thinking about Valerye's concerns about the table of >>>>> >>> contents. >>>>> >>> I got to thinking about how Braille books have a series of dots >>>>> >>> between the chapter title and page number. So, I was wondering if >>>>> >>> inserting an ellipses between the chapter title and page number >>>>> >>> would be an appropriate >>>>> >> solution. >>>>> >>> An ellipses will be recognized and kept by bookshare's tools, and >>>>> >>> will give some separation between chapter title and page number >>>>> >>> for >>>>> >>> those that need that. It wouldn't be spoken by most screen >>>>> >>> readers, >>>>> >>> so wouldn't interfere with anybody's listening pleasure. >>>>> >>> Finally, since Braille readers are used to the series of dots >>>>> >>> between chapter title and page number, it wouldn't seem unusual to >>>>> >>> them >>>>>either. >>>>> >>> So, do you think this would be acceptable and not violate any >>>>> >>> bookshare rules? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Melissa >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>>>> >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get >>>>> >>> a >>>>> >>> list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the >>>>> >>> subject >>>>> >> line. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>>>> >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get >>>>> >>> a >>>>> >>> list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the >>>>> >>> subject >>>>> >> line. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> >>> Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.48/2479 - Release Date: >>>>> >>> 11/03/09 13:38:00 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't have. Just >>>>> >> dreaming about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing the >>>>> >> wind.--Ecclesiastes >>>>> >> 6:9 NLT >>>>> >> >>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>>>> >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a >>>>> >> list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the >>>>> >> subject line. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>>>> >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a >>>>> >> list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the >>>>> >> subject line. >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>>>> > bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> > put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a >>>>> > list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the >>>>> > subject >>>>>line. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>>>>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a >>>>>list >>>>>of >>>>>available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>>>>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a >>>>>list >>>>>of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject >>>>>line. >>>>> >>>>>No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.50/2481 - Release Date: >>>>>11/04/09 >>>>>13:51:00 >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't have. Just >>>> dreaming about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing the >>>> wind.--Ecclesiastes 6:9 NLT >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a >>>> list >>>> of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject >>>> line. >>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list >>> of >>> available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.49/2480 - Release Date: >>> 11/04/09 >>> 07:37:00 >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list >>> of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject >>> line. >>> >> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list >> of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4575 (20091105) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list > of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.49/2480 - Release Date: 11/04/09 07:37:00 To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.