[bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
- From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:20:55 -0800
Hi, Valerie, I have a sister who is slightly aphasic and slightly dyslexic.
Also, my father must have had dyslexia because reading was a slow process
for him. Unfortunately for his generation, teachers would think he was slow
and would have never heard of dyslexia. The way my mother described my
sister's condition was to say that it had something to do with feedback in
her brain. She has problems with fractions, and she has a hard time
pronouncing certain words. She is now getting stuff from my regional
library, i.e., Braille Institute of America because, as she tells me, she
can comprehend some books better if she hears them being read to her rather
than looking at the book in front of her. I look forward to the time when
people are taught like they're human beings, rather than using a
cookie-cutter approach as if our brains can be crammed with information any
old way as if we were like cars made on an assembly line. Regards, Kim.
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Valerie Maples
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:37 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
Hi, Evan!
Because I work with emerging literacy, and a secondary focus on learning
disabilities, visual presentation is important in building skills. Typically
speaking in teaching a child how to orient themselves to a table of contents
the chapter number is on the left, usually followed by a couple of spaces or
a tab, then the title of the chapter, and then usually some distance away
from it on the right margin of the page is the actual page number. By making
the three elements of a single line distinct, you teach children how to scan
in not only a horizontal linear pattern, but a vertical pattern as well.
When there is too much information into smaller space children with learning
disabilities tend to mangle the information and not be able to retrieve the
details. It can make it more difficult for an adult with dyslexia because
they can then have a greater chance of confusing the numbers with letters.
There are also a number of visual learning disabilities were spatial
relationships are important. By controlling how the information is formatted
you improve the odds of a child successfully learning how to not only
differentiate but digest the information that is present.
It is incredibly difficult to teach advanced functions of computer searching
to kids who have these learning disabilities since they often have problems
but spelling correctly or with number order. It is also an additional skill
layered on top of another skill at you are trying to create, which can be
difficult. I am sure I am not making much sense, but I can tell you as an
adult with dyslexia, if the information is too close together, I take about
five times as long to sort the information. Ideally there should be a much
greater distance and the page numbers should online in a column, but
separation of any type is better than the same thing used to indicate a
change of words.
I am trying to learn as much as I can about why presentation matters and how
it is effected by those who listen as well as those who read in Braille, and
I don't want anyone to think that I am being a bully and constantly
reshaping arguments about formatting, but because so much of Bookshare's
current efforts are directed toward their educational grant, I think we do
ourselves well to continue to meet the needs of these kids as best we can.
If we strip all of the useful tools of the visual presentation in effort to
"standardize", we may remove the ability of some students to develop
independent literacy skills outside of software. Until our society has moved
to a format where all text is available electronically, books, newspapers,
and snail mail remain a reality that we need to teach students to develop
techniques to handle. I am all for tools of compromise as long as meaningful
information can still be derived for the target populations. Individuals
with visual impairments have had alternate formats for decades, but it
really is in its infancy for students with more severe physical disabilities
or learning disabilities.
In truth, many texts would be better handled if they could be formatted both
ways, instead of a unified format that is then translated. Since that is
completely unlikely to happen, the next best thing we can have is
considerate dialogues trying to find common ground. Thank you for allowing
me to participate in these discussions.
I have to get Nichole ready for bed, so please forgive me if there are any
speech recognition errors in this long missive. I promise you it is better
than anything that I could have pecked out and taken an hour to correct.
Wink.
Thanks!
Valerie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of EVAN REESE
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:33 PM
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>
> Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying. You are completely
> incoherent. Just kidding.
>
> Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word that it is
> difficult to read a page number in a TOC with only a space between it
> and the title, although I will admit that I don't understand why this
> should be so. If
you
> are reading the title of something, you would just see the page number
after
> it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for information, not for
> argumentation. If it is difficult to read a number with only a space
between
> it and a word, why is it not equally difficult to read words with only
> a single space between them? As I said, I am looking for insight, not
doubting
> the word of those who actually read with sight.
>
> Thanks for any help you can give to further my knowledge on this.
>
> Evan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>
>
> >I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to figure out tables of
> >contents visually with just the single space. I'm perfectly happy
> >with an
ellipsis
> >instead of the space, as an idea. I can't see any way that trying to
> >figuour out how many periods to put in to make the right margin on
> >each line, as is done with a printed book, will make sense or be
> >anything but
a
> >nightmare to do if you're blind. Having an ellipsis in makes it
perfectly
> >readable for me visually.
> >
> > Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some major dental surgery
> > today
and
> > we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an elephant down. So I'm a
> > bit loopy! grin.
> >
> > Judy s.
> >
> > Valerie Maples wrote:
> >> Ideally you should have enough periods so the right margin is even
> >> for visual scanning of page numbers as a list, but an ellipsis
> >> would be better than a single space. that is outright torture to find
anything.
> >>
> >> Valerie
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Debby,
> >>>
> >>> I'd like more commentary from our sighted print disabled readers
> >>> to
know
> >>> whether this will be helpful before I change my practises. I'm
> >>> happy
to
> >>> change, as you are, but not willing to make a permanent change
> >>> until
or
> >>> unless it is commented upon by more than one person.
> >>>
> >>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who is print disabled, but
> >>> sighted want to comment on this?
> >>>
> >>> Mayrie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Debby
Franson
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:58 AM
> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
> >>>
> >>> Hi Mayrie!
> >>>
> >>> Should I insert elipses in the table of contents in "Rebel With a
> >>> Cause"?
> >>> It wouldn't be a bother.
> >>>
> >>> Debby
> >>>
> >>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote
> >>>> Hi Melissa,
> >>>>
> >>>> That's a great idea! Let's see if it would work for folks like
> >>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie was the one requesting a change.
> >>>> If it would work, I don't see how it would go against anything
> >>>> bookshare has
> >>> ever said.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mayrie
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Melissa
Smith
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:07 AM
> >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table Of Contents
> >>>>
> >>>> I've been thinking about Valerye's concerns about the table of
> >>>> contents.
> >>>> I got to thinking about how Braille books have a series of dots
between
> >>>> the chapter title and page number. So, I was wondering if
> >>>> inserting
an
> >>>> ellipses between the chapter title and page number would be an
> >>>> appropriate
> >>> solution.
> >>>> An ellipses will be recognized and kept by bookshare's tools, and
will
> >>>> give some separation between chapter title and page number for
> >>>> those that need that. It wouldn't be spoken by most screen
> >>>> readers, so wouldn't interfere with anybody's listening pleasure.
> >>>> Finally, since Braille readers are used to the series of dots
> >>>> between chapter title and page number, it wouldn't seem unusual
> >>>> to them
either.
> >>>> So, do you think this would be acceptable and not violate any
bookshare
> >>>> rules?
> >>>>
> >>>> Melissa
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>> --
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